What we mean when we talk about change
An artistic exploration of ways to communicate and connect around climate change.
We are at a time of climate emergency when clear communication has never been more critical and in an age where language seems to be used as armour, to protect or exclude or impress. How can we accurately and scientifically describe the crisis facing our world whilst ensuring our messages are accessible, understandable, and practical?
Artists from the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland have produced a film exploring the language around climate change and how key messages – constructed in English and delivered from podiums – are failing to engage the deaf community.
This online event premiered the film, followed by a discussion with members of the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland’s creative team in conversation with Fellows of the RSE as they share their reflections and highlight the findings of a week-long exploration of the language used to communicate climate change.
Watch the FILM
WATCH THE DISCUSSION
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 0:00
Welcome to a joint event between the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland and the Royal Society of Edinburgh. My name’s Jeremy Smith, I have the honour of being a Fellow of the RSE. And I’m sort of facilitating and convening this little event, which I hope will be of interest to you all. It’s a topic, which derives a lot from cop 26, the recent event we just had, on the climate change emergency. But it also is a moment to ponder and reflect on the ways in which we communicate, research and scientific experience, the scientific work. And that notion of communication is at the heart of what it is, we’re going to do today. There’s going to be, I’ll tell you a little bit about how we’re going to organise today, there is going to be a little overview of one of the projects going to be provided in a minute or two. There’ll be a short film. And then there’ll be a question and answer session. And we’re keen that you in the audience will be taking part in this using the q&a function. And if you’re not familiar with that, you’ll find a little button at the bottom of the screen, which is sitting down below. And if you click on that, the q&a button, you’ll be able to pop in your questions. And I’m being assisted by our genial RSE team, who will be helping us undertake some of these some of these activities. So that’s great thing to have. If you require subtitles, you can turn these on using something called the otter.AI function at the top of zoom screen, which I think you’ll find that there, I think it’s a little box, isn’t it at the top left hand corner, you find little boxes up there, and you can click on that. So that’s helpful. There’s also going to be a British Sign Language interpreter, BSL interpreter, who will be on screen throughout the panel discussion, since we’re going to be engaging in particular with these questions of sign language. And that’s Paula, who I can see is already actively taking part in our activity. Okay, well, I’m not going to work my way around the screen as I have it. So it’ll seem a bit peculiar may be in the sequencing but I’d like to ask everyone to say a couple of words about themselves. The first person appears on my screen is Rita. So would Rita say a couple of words but she’ll be doing so I believe in sign language.
Rita McDade 3:01
My name is Rita McDade, as you can see from the gallery and I work in the Royal Conservatory of Scotland (RCS). I’ve got numerous roles, I do translation work, teaching, coordinator. And I’m also involved with the dramaturg. Thank you, Rita.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 3:26
That’s great. Thank you very much. The next person on my screen is Mick.
Michael Duke 3:33
Hi, my name is Mick Duke. I am playwright and theatre director and occasionally a dramaturg. And I was working as a freelancer on the ‘what we mean when we talk about change’ project. I was there as a writer to support devised and improvised text, some of which has ended up in the film.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 3:57
Thanks, Mick. The next one is Claire.
Claire Lamont 4:02
Hello everyone. My name is Claire, and I lead a course called the BA performance in British Sign Language and English course, which is in the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland. And my background is as an actor and theatre maker and director.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 4:21
Thanks, Claire. The next one I’ve got is Antonella.
Professor Antonella Sorace FRSE 4:25
Hello, everybody. I’m a professor at the University of Edinburgh. I do research on bilingualism and language learning at all ages and in all modalities. And I’m also the director of the Centre of Bilingualism Matters, which is a public engagement centre that tries to communicate research to people in society and we train researchers to communicate science clearly to different people.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 4:55
And finally, I’ve got Leslie.
Dr Leslie Mabon 4:58
Hello, my name is Leslie Mabon I am an environmental social scientist, and I have a background in geography. I’m joining today in our personal not an institutional capacity. We are interested in climate change communication and how you engage with the public and with society, on the science behind climate change.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 5:24
Thanks very much, Leslie. And as you can see from today’s event, it’s very informal. So we hope to open up for discussion in all sorts of ways. Okay, well, I’m now going to turn to Claire, who’s going to give a broad overview of project which we’re going to be starting today’s discussion with, when who, what, why. So Claire, if you could unmute and go for it.
Claire Lamont 5:55
And yes, I think that also though, Jeremy, that was the trailer and not the full film. So I think there is a full film to be viewed, which is about 12 minutes long. And so I’m very happy to speak a little bit about that fuller film, and then maybe we can watch that after I checked.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 6:14
We’re getting we’re getting, we’re getting there. That’s the only link I’ve been sent. So I have got any others.
Claire Lamont 6:22
Okay, so let me say a little bit about us before we hopefully get a longer film. And so as I mentioned at the beginning, I run a course at the Royal Conservatory of Scotland. So this is a course that was set up in 2015. And it’s the only course in the UK and one of only a few in the world that’s set up to train Deaf and Hard of Hearing actors and theatre makers. And so for the last seven years, we’ve been experimenting and working in BSL and English, and looking at how we make theatre and how we communicate meaning on stage. I work very closely with Rita who, as she mentioned his dramaturg on the programme, and has also just been commended for excellence in dramaturgy through the Kenneth Tynan Awards. So well done to Rita for that. And, and we’ve worked closely with a number of projects. A few years ago, we were asked to do an exchange project with our drama school in Hanover. And that was a multi lingual exploration of making new work. And that was, I think, two days before every country started to shut down. We were supposed to be doing that live and in person. And we turned that into an online project. And having seen the results of that project, the research and knowledge exchange team came to us and asked us if we would like to get in a room together and talk and think and play around issues of climate and language. And so in August, I think it was a group of seven artists got together that included myself, Nick and Rita. And a filmmaker called Stuart and two actors, one who uses English, and one who uses the BSL. And we started to talk about climate and the emergency. And where we all felt we sat in that and whether we felt connected to it. And we looked at script and we improvise script. And we played with the notion of feeling disenfranchised or disconnected by the language of those in authority or in power, I suppose. Some of the information that we were reading felt like it wasn’t information that was hitting us or making us feel included, whether we were BSL speakers, or English speakers. I don’t know Mick or Rita if you want to add anything in to that as a brief description of the week.
Michael Duke 9:11
If I may, Jeremy, just for a moment. Yes, the very helpful thing about the week was having the room so thanks for the resource and the support having the space for a week to just concentrate on what we made of this particular aspect of an enormous issue. And I think that’s the often the difficulty is just not having the time to think about things and and we went on a bit of a journey during that week having been given that space and having read the 45 page IPCC summary I think we can enter the room feeling how on earth could we possibly engage in the language the report was written and nevermind engaging with BSL users to extend that information outwards. We felt a bit daunted and so the during the course of the week I think through contact with each other and probably principally Rita and the filmmaker Stewart, I think there were, there was a lot for all of us to learn from each other and I think we came out a lot more hopeful than we went in and just beginning to work out how we could make a difference ourselves and what might be a helpful mindset to be taking outwards.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 10:41
Thanks very much. Thanks very much to Nick and Claire.
Claire Lamont 10:54
We wanted to get into a room with a lot of different artists and talk and explore ideas of climate and language and what we were looking at was the relationship and the journey of two different characters for their own reasons who are frustrated with a language around climate and institutional speak which covers up truth or meaning.
Claire Lamont 14:09
And when we were looking at the translation process and what that means and how that works, you know if the language that we started is impenetrable to me, and then that’s going through a translation process to arrive at someone who’s taking that in in a second language that’s never gonna work. That’s not about actually wanting to meet someone on their terms or engage and meet halfway.
Michael Duke 14:58
There’s a character is sort of emerging I think whose story could take us through the sort of journey of discovering not just about climate science or possible ways of how that could be handled but also by parallel models of power and information.
Next week Dave your Dave is going to bring us micro affinity forest to talk about that we’ll do more next week. Yeah, definitely. But not seven tomorrow
Michael Duke 19:15
part of the discussion in the room has been connecting with ideas of people that are much further down the track with the same questions really about how does how can I make this mean something for me and people like me and the people in my community
you go to the trainers now. We’re gonna do some submediant everyone does. Let’s do it. All together. Brilliant. before but when we were confused, yeah, we weren’t we didn’t understand that we were confused before.
Me and you, Yeah? Couldn’t be bothered with it. It was all done. But what about now? We’re gonna work on something? Together, now, right now. Get together, a team of us we can try, are we going to have a different way of life?
Claire Lamont 20:34
If the process of translation means we have to get better at saying what it is we need or what it is we want, then I’m really up for that. Because I think we need more of that in terms of how we communicate at the minute. I think sometimes we talk about notions of access and access requirements and accessible materials, which is all very important. But I think what we learnt from Rita through this week and ttrough onversations was that we can’t think about that as a solution. As where we stop that actually it’s about individuals meeting each other, adapting to each other. And through that learning something and being able to move forward, rather than it being something that we do, and we provide that doesn’t actually enable a journey.
Claire Lamont 22:02
When you’re making a play, everyone wants the meaning of the play to be communicated. That’s what we do. So if we’re not having these conversations about what’s authentic for you, what works for you, how would that actually happen, then we’re not doing the right work. So that’s where I would like to get I’d like to create something where we have a BSL user and an English speaker, together, looking at this journey of what language does to them, and what progress we can make in a way that feels real and true.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 23:03
Thanks so much for that very moving piece. Thank you, Claire. And my apologies, again, for that this little hiatus that took place a brief for a brief interruption in zoom world, which I’m fear we’re also used to these days. Okay, well, we now move on to the next part of our discussion, in which we have questions and answers. And we have the q&a button at the bottom of the screen, which I mentioned at the beginning, which people are able to access and type into, and I see a few people have have done so already, but not at this stage. And so I’m going to get the ball rolling by asking a question, which came into my own mind. While you were while the presentation was going on. One of the definitions of research, which is one of the things close to my own heart, is new insights. But effectively shared is that effective sharing, which seems to be the main issue, which you’re discussing here. How would you how would any of you guys respond to the notion of effective sharing? What does that kind of thing mean to you? And maybe Claire, you could respond to that.
Claire Lamont 24:34
Thanks, Jeremy, new insights effectively shared that’s a yeah, that’s a great line. Because I think what what we’ve seen in the last six, seven years of the course, is they’re helping a lot of new insights, particularly for hearing communities and members of staff. Lots that we’ve learned from interacting and learning from Deaf artists, and educators and teachers and how we effectively share those same question because a lot of what I see on an academic language of research that you need to connect to, I don’t know Rita, maybe you would know of BSL lead research, I don’t know how we make sure that we can effectively share research that is allowed to be high quality research from BSL perspectives. It’s an interesting notion. I mean, we’ve created a video with captions, we have contributions from the BSL artists, English artists, but even even that doesn’t give all of the information and BSLs I suppose. So we’re constantly learning and moving and trying to make sure that we’re connecting with the audience’s that need to see the kinds of work. And that’s coming on to the course. But it’s a journey for sure. How do we effectively share and make sure we’re meeting people?
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 26:06
Let’s try and Rita first, and then Antonella.
Rita McDade 26:14
It’s very interesting, because you’re talking about language and research. And also we’re talking about communication. So first issue really, as, you know, the informations there. And it’s in English, I mean, as everything is very strongly based in English, you know, from all over. And it’s English, that is primarily what is is. So, so we’re looking at, you know, changing attitudes, and using BSL. But a lot of things depend on, you know, you know, have been dependent on what’s been traditional, you know, the traditional way that were followed, it’s just been passed on and passed on. And nobody is really trying to, you know, maybe think out the box, give something new or try. And because obviously, that involves taking a risk, you know, and then if things work out great. And then if it doesn’t, then you have to think right, okay, consider the fact that didn’t work, how did it not work? You know, and try and have a conversation over that. And, you know, this is the point of research, research papers, again, mostly in English, they’re at an academic level, and this is the traditional way, it’s, it’s how it is, so, I know myself, because I have worked, before in these institutions, and, you know, I’ve looked at research, you know, looked at and tried to basically. Implement implement so it’s given an English and then, yeah, you’re implementing it. From research papers, you’re taking it from research people so you’re reading, and then thinking, right, okay, yeah, we can translate but, it’s about the knowledge, you know, and you need to have that knowledge of what the research paper is, that needs to be there as well, not just the research paper in itself, to be able to translate that effectively, you know, and communicate the information, that’s information sharing. And that is, you know, in a way that you’re passing on that, that people can understand that. So it isn’t just about translating English into BSL, and we need to work with interpreters on that as well. Interpreters, they are a benefit. Yes, absolutely. And there is as a benefit o having them there. But, you know, a lot of the interpreters will use, like, what’s called working language, so they have a knowledge of BSL, and they will work in that language, but a lot of it really becomes, you know, prescriptive, it’s very prescriptive. And that’s it because obviously, they’re coming, you know, English is their first language as well and that’s where they’re coming at it from, but BSL is not prescriptive language. It’s a descriptive language. And that’s the difference you know, and that then can become a bit there can be ajar there between both of them. So yes, there’s an understanding of the language you know, the grammar etc. It’s there. But, you know, you can sign, work it out, you can know what it is, but to formulate it into a way that’s understood fully from the source language, it’s more challenging than that. Because as I say, different interpreters using BSL is a working language, as I said, that then can become prescriptive and not descriptive and for me, and this was one of another discussion, but actually then can become a double barrier. Effectively.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 30:25
Yeah, thank you, Rita. Thank you very much. That leads, I think, some quite interesting questions about whether the science community is actually aware of these things or think through these things. And I see that Auntie nella, and then Leslie are both flag that they’d like to say something, there is also something in the q&a, but maybe we could hear enter there, Lesley, while I look at the q&a and connect up with that. Antonella.
Professor Antonella Sorace FRSE 30:50
Thank you, this is very, a very interesting discussion. And I’d like there are at least two issues here. One is how to share research and sharing research is not easy. Academics are not necessarily natural communicators in general. Right. So and we need to be clear in communication about science, particularly on urgent issues like climate change, but also COVID. Issues that need changes of behaviour. And if we want people to change their behaviour, we have to be clear in our messages. And this is what you know, we train students and researchers to do. But there is another issue. And I think it’s very relevant for what we’re talking about. So adapted communication to bilingual speakers. So as Rita mentioned, most of this communication is done in English, which for a BSL user is a second language, right. So I think, you know, learning to communicate to bilingual communities, who may have another language as their first language is, is important, not so much from the point of view of translation. Because we’ve done research, you know, asking people, What do you understand of this translation, and they think the translations are often not very good. So it’s not a matter of translating, it’s a matter of really getting into a more direct communication, as we were saying, right with these communities. And if I may say, a third point that we are exploring is really how to take into account the bilingualism of these communities, yours, for example, but many other bilingual communities, because we know that information, numerical messages, for example, other kinds of phrases may be understood in a different way by bilinguals. Not necessarily in a bad way. In fact, we know that bilinguals may have a better understanding of different viewpoints have different points of view. So we’re doing a pilot research, for example, on how people understand COVID information, right. And we are trying to see whether bilinguals understand this information in such a way that avoids polarisation of opinions, which we know you know, can end up in aggressive Novak’s attitudes and so on. Precisely because bilinguals all bilinguals regardless of the languages can have a better ability to understand different points of view. So it seems to me it’s a very interesting field, we have to be clear, we have to learn to communicate research to general audiences, we have to learn to communicate research to particular communities of bilingual speakers, we have to learn to understand the difference between bilingual understanding and monolingual understanding of communication.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 34:12
Thank you, Antonella. Yeah, ‘following the science’, there’s an expression we’ve heard maybe a little too often, but let’s see. Let’s see what Leslie has to add to this.
Dr Leslie Mabon 34:23
I would add that the reverse is also true, and that the climate science world is not well set up to bring in knowledge and experience from people who do not communicate in English and especially do not communicate in the written scientific language of English. So I was interested to hear Mick earlier talking about the IPCC reports on the way the IPCC works is it synthesises peer reviewed science. The result of this is that a lot of knowledge and experience for people who are going to be affected perhaps hardest of all, by climate change is excluded from the synthesis and reports that are very important in driving government policy and actions that’s relevant globally. So for instance, at COP 26, I heard a Kenyan science minister saying that they in Kenya, they don’t have the resources to run the kind of climate change models that the IPCC needs. And that means that globally, the knowledge of the places that are going to be affected most by climate change is missing from evidence synthesis. And I would argue that that’s just as relevant to experiences and knowledges that are not written in English, and perhaps are not expressed in the kind of scientific language that the IPCC relies on. So I think this is a huge issue. And it’s equally relevant for the whole breadth of experiences for how we bring in things like sign language, deaf, non hearing experiences of a changing environment, there was a huge gap in the science and policy understanding of this, I would say.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 36:37
That’s fascinating. You know, it’s like that moment when someone tried to explain to me mortgage endowment mortgages years and years ago, and I was completely baffled by what I heard, to my own cost. And somehow you never know something till you try to explain to someone else. Interesting question and answer in the chat. Bill says, do you agree that those of us who are hearing need a bit of space to keep up when I block while stammering the same thing applies? Can you repeat that? Of course I can. Do you agree that those of us who are hearing need a bit of space to keep up when I block while stammering, same thing applies? Okay. Would anyone like to comment on that. Certainly, I need to keep keep up, Claire.
Claire Lamont 37:36
I absolutely think it applies to hearing communities, a lot of the hearing people in the room were very passionate about feeling disengaged from the language in which some of this information around climate has been communicated. And there was a lot of similarities in the room about not feeling like we were part of the conversation nicely. Stewart, who was the filmmaker is much further on than we are. He’s an activist and connected to a lot of different groups. And he brought the hope into the room for us because he shared lots of different and talks and about climate and fantastic speech by a man called John Holloway, I think it was called now is the time to learn change, to learn hope, sorry, now is the time to learn about hope. And so we sat in some of those examples that he brought into the room, about the communities who are doing it well, activist groups communal groups who are learning alongside each other about how to make change. And that was a really important part of the week because as Nick said, as well, at the beginning, it felt overwhelming. How do we even start having this conversation about a climate emergency and Antonella as you’re talking about, we’ve just gone through COVID. Now obviously I’m having conversations and picking Rita spray into my face not working. You know, in Scotland, there was interpreters there, but it’s not working. No, there’s still layers I should talk about that need unpicked in terms of the process of that reach to the Deaf community. And then you’ve got London that doesn’t have interpreters, cop 26, I don’t think even had interpretation. So Amy’s speech when she’s going, I’m getting this interpretation, but it’s not connecting to me. You know, that wasn’t even there. The attempt at the first layer of interpretation wasn’t there. So still, yes, absolutely. I don’t know in terms, I’d be interested, though, in terms of the stammer and the block and how that affects you. I’ve got no knowledge of that. But in terms of hearing people needing space, absolutely. And some some of the things I love most about the privilege of working with deaf actors and academics and dramaturgs is that it allows space for us to really look in deeply to what a text is saying, or what we’re trying to express. There’s no skimming over it, ifit’s not possible, we’ve all got to sit in the space and learn from each other and question things and, and that’s really where the learning feels richer than any other kind of environment that I would would have been in theatre previously.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 40:15
Thanks, Claire’s, it’s like slow learning actually does deep learning isn’t it in a funny sort of way. Antonella has put a hand up, there’s a comment here from Claire. But before we get to it, maybe Antonella you’d like to
Professor Antonella Sorace FRSE 40:28
Just to add to that, that it’s absolutely true. It’s not just a matter of, you know, hearing or non hearing people, lots of people feel excluded by the communication, you know, about climate change, but even a, you know, about more immediate risks, you know, like, COVID, you know, so that’s, we’re doing this project, you know, just to measure how what people how people react to information about risks that may be more or less immediate, and lots of people feel excluded. Many communities feel excluded. So we really have to learn how to communicate in a way that respects particular communities, cultural values, languages, and engages with these communities. And it’s not just a matter of finding an interpreter or a translator.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 41:29
It’s a, it’s a big cultural thing isn’t it. The question which has come up in Claire’s statement, and sorry, Rita, like, say something?
Rita McDade 41:45
I completely understand everybody’s point of view. And one thing is, well, we’re talking about different languages and how we communicate that etc, etc. And that is vital, yes, very important. But just in addition, it doesn’t matter. You know, what language we’re using, is the power of hearing. That’s very important. Because you’ll pick up things and it doesn’t matter. Even if you don’t understand the language, you pick up your brain or collect information or pick up things, you know, vicariously that deaf people don’t. For deaf people, it’s very a different experience for them. They won’t pick things up in that way. So you know, I mean, it could be anything from hearing something on the bus or the radio, or overhearing somebody chatting in a cafe, you know, you’re picking up a lot of environmental noise communication, information, vicariously, unwittingly, quite often, but deaf people don’t do that at all. They’re in silence. So, you know, and a lot of people, you know, who rely on English and I mean, I can I have a good use of, of English. And, you know, you can see sometimes say things to people and they’ve got absolutely no idea. So. Shielding for example, yeah, shielding. If you’re ill, you stay at home and you shield. So that’s something that everybody heard about. Yeah. But I actually had to go to people’s houses and explain what that meant. One deaf person says, knows that because it’s cold, and I was like, no, no, I had to explain, no, you have to stay at home if you’re ill and at risk, oh, well how do I get out for food for things like that. Have you not received a letter or a text? You know, you can do that you can text. So you can have done, you can have food delivered. But we’re were unaware of that service. So you know, it’s not just about as I said, the language. And I mean, we have the First Minister briefing, and that’s great. You know, I have to say, Well done, and I do like that they have provided an interpreter, but again, sometimes the actual film that the camera sorry is pointing at the First Minister, and if there’s questions asked, we often can’t see the interpreter. So they have provided an interpreter, but they haven’t thought about how the filming it so what’s the point? So obviously, as I’ve said before, about the language that the interpreters used as very prescriptive as not descriptive as we would naturally use in BSL so that can become a double barrier. So as I said, you know, it’s not just about the language is also about hearing actually hearing things in what you pick up, as I say, unwittingly or vicariously from the environment. it’s everything. I don’t think that that, you know, quite gets across, you know, you’ve got that bank of information, vocabulary in your head and that is built on, you know and things all come together from that deaf people don’t they don’t have that.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 45:17
I don’t want to cut you off there because that sounds interesting thing we could pursue. But I see there’s a question from Claire before we wrap up. She says this, I don’t know very much about BSL so appreciated the comment earlier, that it’s descriptive, rather than prescriptive building on Leslie’s point and Claire’s just now, I wonder about the extent to which BSL is able to convey the science.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 45:53
Would anyone like to respond to that.
Rita McDade 45:56
Through sign, that is our language, it is a language, you know, it’s not a written language it’s a visual language. It’s a three dimensional visual language, including, you know, you have to use facial expression, cheeks, eyebrows, you know, your mouth, your voice, how you move your body, in what space that conveys intonation, you know, things like that body language. So obviously, you know, through your own speech, you have good intonation, and you’ll know from that intonation if somebody is annoyed, or whatever, you know, We have that too in sign language through body language and facial expression.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 46:38
Thanks. Thanks very much. Thanks. Thanks very much. That’s lovely.
Rita McDade 46:47
Yeah, I haven’t quite finished there. So obviously, you know, you’ll know for example, how to turn talk because of intonation, when you hear that in somebody’s voice. So we convey that through, you know, facial expression and body language, you do have these things in our language. But it’s then how do you take that from the English and translate that into BSL, you have to understand as well, you know, there is an element of ownership in that as well. And that one would have to understand that that we do have that we have to take ownership over their own work to become clear, and how we convey that work.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 47:32
We’re coming up time, so I’m going to ask Antonella, as she’s put her hand up to speak very briefly.
Professor Antonella Sorace FRSE 47:41
Just to say that, as a linguist, I can tell you that sign language is like any other language in a different modality. You can say anything in sign languages. So that’s absolutely you know, true in different ways, different modality, but it’s a language like any other language, and you can say anything in that language.
Professor Jeremy Smith FRSE 48:03
Thanks, Antonella, spot on. I think we all agree with that. Thank you very much indeed, for today, it’s been very exciting. What I think has come across me is that this event is one of those ones, which challenges people who work in science to think about not just speaking, or writing, and uttering, but also, in some sense, listening, reading, and looking, and hearing, because any kind of science worth its name is one, which is in some sense, iterative that interacts with people with whom it’s trying to communicate. And I think that notion of, of listening, science is very powerful one, and one we might like to take away from today. As I say, we’re coming up for time. I’ve been charged to mention that there are a number of online events coming up in the next few weeks and months, on the Royal Society of Edinburgh website, which is something that I know that my colleagues are very keen to flag up. You can find it simply by googling and we can go on from there. Also, I’ve been asked to tell the audience that will receive an email asking for feedback about this event. It’s one of the first we’ve done of its kind. So if you’ve had a an email about that, look out for it. We’d be very pleased, we’d be very grateful for response. I conclude by thanking everybody for putting on this event. I’d like to thank Claire and Rita and Mick and Leslie and Antonella for making it such an interesting event. I’d also particularly like to thank the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland for putting on a really exciting video and my apologies again for for my pathetic abilities in sharing screens. But it was, it was a powerful piece. And if you could pass on my thanks to the the actors as well, that would be much appreciated. So, Kate, I think is going to close the Zoom webinar any second and you will suddenly be beamed away. So thank you so much, everybody, for most interesting and exciting event. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you