Thirteen Fragments

This event was part of the RSE’s summer events programme, Curious.
Find out more on the Curious website.

A National Theatre of Scotland and Royal Society of Edinburgh co-production.

Created by award-winning writer and performer Hannah Lavery, Thirteen Fragments is an artistic response to the RSE’s Post-Covid-19 Commission’s work, addressing how Scotland can emerge from the Covid pandemic as a more equitable, resilient society. The digital artwork reflects Hannah’s experiences of the last year, as a woman of colour, and explores the meaning of female resilience in Scotland today and aspirations for the future.

The accompanying panel discussion involves Hannah Lavery in conversation with RSE Fellows Talat Yaqoob and Zinnie Harris. Their discussion takes the film as a starting point, and explores the key themes, including the impact of Covid-19 on women and wider society, and the role that art and creativity play in the pandemic.

Written and Directed by: Hannah Lavery Film Maker: Beth Chalmers Choreographer: Nat McCleary Composer: Beldina Odenyo

The transcript for this video is currently being prepared, apologies for any inconvenience.

Please note transcripts are automatically generated, so may feature errors.

Mark Cousins 

National Theatre of Scotland and the Royal Society of Edinburgh present Thirteen Fragments.

Hannah Lavery 

One

Mark Cousins 

And they get back.

Hannah Lavery 

Can you see your name? No? Wait. I will write it in the air for you. Is that how you spell it? There is a time capsule with my name on it. All our names. And inside it – that year, this year. They will bury it for us here and plant a new rose, call it “the future”. Call it Scotland. How lucky I am. How lucky we are.

Mark Cousins 

The arched muscular back drifts out of focus.

Hannah Lavery 

They will bury all these shackled days. Tied to tie down days. Homework, homeschool, home, warzone, mask, uniform, front line, phone line, bread line, lifeline, wave through the glass wave. Hello, wave, help. Wave it away. Dance alone in your kitchen. Say an iPad Goodbye. Goodbye. Oh, all those days. days we realise we knew more about ourselves but less, much less about each other. The day they asked us to tell them tell us about what it meant to live a life, our life here in this place that our place our life mattered. And the days they asked if we could stop now. Hadn’t they done enough now? This is not what they really wanted. Give us dancing now. And songs about summer. Inside this brand new pass, they will lay down our voices shall I’m talking at our flag will be neatly folded. Is this who we are patriotic ramblings. Tweet. Tweet. Shudder is this very odd? Tweet, tweet, mob, pylon, dog whistle. The year we clung to our borders and dreamed of escape. Just not for them. Just not for them. Oh, you talk, you talk, you talk, you talk as if we all had the choice.

Mark Cousins 

I make it back against a black backdrop. A bright light illuminates the bronze two skin and casts a shadow across the hollow of the spine.

Hannah Lavery 

Two. There was that year. I walked with my friend along an empty beach sitting two metres apart. She told me her dreams. I told her mind together. We missed our mothers watch the lapwings in the salt marsh, the women swimming in the sea. There was that year we explained death to our children while sharing our laptops. Watched death happen on the TV up the road, in a care home, in a hospital bed over a bad connection. We watched death happen. We watched death move like fog. And was all that half watching. Safe in this place. Our place this place any different from last year and last year and next year. And next, we watch death happen. A man dies calling for his mother. A school full of girls. A big shop. A home. Her home. A tower full of hope. Full of dreamers, prayer. Her children. A poet’s falling off a craft inflated with longing drowning in the Mediterranean Sea.

Three

Mark Cousins 

A neck.

Hannah Lavery 

if we were bears, we would have called it hibernation. Escaping winter. We are not bears. So we call the other things and no matter how much we reached eight, we were always lean and hold him back. But I missed standing with you. I did not do that. I’m sorry. But I felt my spine. Stephen felt my screen for him. What uses the tears of bystanders? And I’m not sure all this will stay buried no matter how deep a hole we have dug

Mark Cousins 

Four

Hannah Lavery 

Legs.

That year, they called it resilience are 1000 other things that are to make us feel special to lay false goals or feats. I have heard of women like this all my life. Cassandra, the trailblazer, the genius, the philosopher. They’re compassionate, they’re brilliant, the wiry, the nurse, the doctor, the teacher, the artist, the daughter, the mother. They have always been living this way. Given this way. Taken on. Can we not say it shouldn’t have to be so hard? Can we say that now? What use is applause to the exhausted? What use is applause to the overlooked the underpaid? Can you see your name? No. Wait, I will write it in the air for you. Is that how you spell? There is a time capsule with all our names in it. They will bury it for us and plant a new rose. They will call it our future. Lucky we are, lucky and so fairy.

Five.

Mark Cousins 

Forearms.

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

And we took what we were given and spun a web for them to catch us in wore it like a crown dressed in like it was gold like it was silk and not, and not a trap. Tell us. And we didn’t go out to protest. Because our children were restless, and our mothers were feeling, and our work was calling and our bills needed paying, but we took to the night. So just a moment to breathe before turning back and walking home. We were just walking. She was just walking home.

Hannah Lavery 

Six.

I’m done. I’m done. I’m not switching on. I’m not turning up. I’m not tuning in. I’m not holding your bloody hands. Not today. Not another day. Not another girl. Not today. Not today. I’m not going to rise up. I’m not going to stand up and first up and kneel down. Not today. Not another day, not another. I’m not taken this on, I’m not fighting your opinions are not coming in today. Today I’m drop weight I’m pit bound I’m levelling down each level So he took us whilst we slept whilst we walked whilst we dance whilst we worked whilst I’m in the pet, buddy connecting me the devil today. When you called Powell I was here nailed to the cross me building a pyre make collecting all the fire make wind and rope to the trees. Mother. I’m not going to do I’m not coming over. I’m hanging along the quiet podcast. Other girls other girls another girl. Another girl. I’m swinging all the dead girls I’m swinging my oh my dad’s girls. I’m not getting up. I’m not getting up, pulled and drawn drapes down drawn clip gown that on claim faced throne Corpse Bride I’m I’m drowning in pools sheets holding off bed lamp Mark Bell Damn, I’m not. I’m not going. I’m not going not to do today. I’m down in the mud swamp sleeping in Dark Pit. I’m sleeping in bright flashlight. I’m joining them pooled sheets. I’m not. I’m not. Not today. Not another day. Not another, not another girl.

Mark Cousins 

A crumpled white bedsheet with creases scored across it.

Hannah Lavery 

Seven.

She stands for another year, in a chamber of echoes, prepares to list the dead. They cut to an advert for car insurance to an old man in a hall of mirrors. Before she even finishes saying their names.

Eight

In a dream my grandmother appeared gold bangles, red silk, lily of the valley. She handed me rosemarie. I took it, I took her hand, my inheritance handed down in a large box. Find your coven, she whispered.

Mark Cousins 

Black screen.

Hannah Lavery 

Nine.

If we were real.

Mark Cousins 

A statuesque woman with her chest wrapped in white cloth.

Unknown Speaker 

We will be as tall as statues, as permanent, as a street name. As strong as a building, named after our sister built for our sisters to speak. Monuments would rise to meet the birds. Our ghost women.

Unknown Speaker 

Her square-jawed face has neatly cropped black hair and hooped earrings. She casts her cool gaze straight ahead, before slowly blinking and turning to the right.

Hannah Lavery 

Ten.

Mark Cousins 

Black screen

Hannah Lavery 

I spent a day watching her grilled in the committee room glued to her by myself crossing my fingers for her. holding my breath for her. grew angry in my front room for all those days. All those women will tweet a post a letter phoned a friend. read my diary. I said, she said he said he said he said to come out power and used it. There, I thought leaving my mark enough. And enough I heard back but it was not an echo of my voice that I heard. It was a movement

Mark Cousins 

Falls to the floor.

Hannah Lavery 

Eleven.

I ditched their expectations for new weight. I watched my arms turn solid and strong. took myself into a cold sea pushed and lifted myself to somewhere else. Somewhere. I wanted to be.

Twelve.

Mark Cousins 

She lives on her back her naked arms and legs visible, stretched upwards as if suspended in space. Cast and shadow her fingers and toes are pointed up, flexing gently back and forth.

Are smooth calves and forearms drift out of view, leaving only her fingers and tools gently swaying and the darkness before they too vanish from sight.

Inch by inch beginning with her elbows and knees, her limbs begin to disappear from view.

Hannah Lavery 

Thirteen

We meet as old friends on a bench in the park. Drink rum in the cold. She tells us, she has done with Copan, we get drunk on old stories. When the dark comes, we reach for each other’s hands. The Trojan Women wait at the edge of their burning city. Cassandra silently mouths the future at the edge of the shore. Her tears fall silently salting the see. No one will listen to her. No one will believe her. No her, no her, not yet. I believe her.

Mark Cousins 

Fingers and toes began to emerge once again.

Hannah Lavery 

My daughter insisted that I go and watch her climb trees. She climbed up this one tree went so high, so fast, so sure. I was left looking up. Look up. I was left holding back my fear wheeling her on my arms outstretched. Wait. Let me write your name. Plant your grandmother’s rosemarie. Call it “the future”. Plant a new rose call it “Scotland”. Call it, call it “the future”, if you like I’ll call it “hers”. I’ll call it “hers”.

Mark Cousins 

And National Theatre of Scotland and Royal Society of Edinburgh, RSE co-production as part of the RSE is post-COVID-19 Futures Commission. Find out more at https://www.rsecovidcommission.org.uk/. With thanks to RSE fellows Professor Lin Abrams, Zinnie Harris, James Read and Talat Yaqoob. Writer, director and spoken by Hannah Lavery, performer and movement director Natalie McCleary, composer Beldina Odenyo. Filmmaker Beth Chamers, stage manager Babbitt Wickham Riddick, sound advisor Richard Price, audio describer Christopher McEntee, further credits roll.

Zinnie Harris 

Welcome to this panel event discussing Thirteen fragments. This beautiful, eloquent and thoughtful piece of work written and directed by Hannah Lavery about what means experience during the pandemic. The film is a co-production between the National Theatre of Scotland and the Royal Society of Edinburgh and commissioned to reflect some aspects of the Royal Society of Edinburgh as post-COVID Futures Commission. My name is Zinnie Harris, and I’m a theatre director and playwright. With me I have two wonderful and interesting women that I hope will join in a conversation about this short film. Firstly, Hannah Labrie herself, the writer and director of the piece of work that you’ve just watched. Hannah is a poet, playwright, performer and director. She’s one of Imaginators accelerator artists and associate artists with the National Theatre of Scotland, as well as Rasial residence at the Lyceum Youth Theatre. In November 2020 her highly acclaimed play lament for shaker bio was produced by the Royal Lyceum Theatre, National Theatre of Scotland and the Edinburgh International Festival in a production that Hannah directed and that piece of work lament is back on at the International Festival this year. Her poetry has been published widely and her poem Scotland your no mine was selected by Roseanne Watt is one of the best Scottish poems in 2019. Her pamphlet finding sea glass was published by Stewed Rhubarb Press in 2019, and her debut poetry collection Blood Salt Spring will be published by Polygon in 2022. Talat Yaqoob is an independent consultant, campaigner, and fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh. Her work focuses on tackling inequalities primarily on gender and race equality. She’s the co-founder of Women 5050, which aims to increase women’s representation in politics and the founder of passed the mic, the first and only directory of women of colour experts to amplify their voices and expertise in Scotland. Hopefully in the next 30 to 40 minutes, we’re going to talk a lot of the about a lot of the themes that came out of that piece of work. But I just wanted to kick off by saying what struck me about the work was that it feels both utterly contemporary and I’m thinking of the references to iPad goodbyes and homeschooling but it also weaves references from across the ages, making it feel mythic and classical. We hear trojan we hear and get images of trojan Women, Cassandra, a grandmother handing us rosemary all the time, while we’re placing our experience in the context. We’re placing our experience in about this last year in the context of past generations. It also for me, kind of conjured up something of the connectedness that we have had as we not only live through the pandemic, but experienced the shared trauma of things like this, Sarah Everad and the Black Lives Matter, but also that we’ve lived this time in utter isolation. So I just thought I’d kind of kick-off really asking you Hannah, to tell us a little bit about your hopes and aims as you started this piece of work.

Hannah Lavery 

I think, for me, I was really interested when I had my first conversations with the Royal Society of Edinburgh, about this idea of a resilient, but how we can move forward into the future. And I was really informed by Lin, Professor Lin Abrons caring about inequality at home and talents, work on discussions, kind of the importance of discussions with communities. And was really so I suppose, I kind of started off with looking at the silences as I think, and something about who the experiences that are that we, we need to recognise and to value as we move forward and how that would inform the kind of future that we want. But there seem to be a I suppose it seems to be the last year old on felt like a reckoning and that I wanted to sort of reflect that, but also to, and I think the reason why it’s fragmentary, is it felt also that we were, we were responding to it as women as Scottish women, as women of colour in with all our different parts of ourselves. And I felt that it was in you know, as a mother as well, I felt like there were so many pools and pushes and, and moments of, of that things felt like we were the tension. I felt like a breaking down and rebuilding and breaking down again. And, and so this idea of what our future would be, for me, I want you to create a piece that felt a bit like a provocation. That was a bit kind of like, what is it? What is the future? What is it that we want? And I think I was struck especially around the conversations that happened around Sarah Everad around the conversations that were happening around Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond at beginning of this year and the end of last year was these ideas about what is what society do you want to emerge on and what it is about safety, and how do we flourish? And how do we get past the idea of just surviving, or this idea of resilience is something, this feeling that we want more than just to cope, that we deserve more than just coping, and we deserve to look into our future. And we deserve to, to say to our, to our children and to our daughters, that actually, that, that you can climb the tree, you can go as high as you want, that you can have ambition. And that we come that we move forward, but we move forward with our wounds, we move forward with our grandmothers’ memories, and we hold all of that. So I think I was trying to do all of that. And I was really struck by these conversations that were beginning within the Commission’s and the length, you know, the kind of work that I was sent, that was really about that these discussions that needs to happen, and about the burden that women are carrying.

Zinnie Harris 

There’s something so right about it being a kind of provocation. And I think that’s what’s so clever about the fact that it’s fragments, it’s not, it’s not sort of stating what comes next. It’s kind of saying this was the collective experience. And you give us that beautiful image of the rose as something that’s planted but we don’t know what will go on what will bloom, you know that that sense of naming it as hers, Talat this is very much the area that you’re you’re in, isn’t it? This is a sort of artistic response to a lot of the things that you’re spending your working life kind of thinking about? What was your response to the piece?

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

Well, firstly, it is beautiful, I watched it and it’s beautiful to watch, I then replayed it and just listened to the words. And it’s it’s both beautiful to watch and listen to and altogether a really impressive, thoughtful piece of work. And it, it made me realise how rare it is for something that is so policy focus, which is what the commission has been doing, it’s very much about policy, and how rare it is to hear for there to be a way to think about it a way to interact with it that brings in the arts. And that that is all too rare. And this is a really good example of why that is a collaboration that needs to happen more often. Because it made me think about the work that I’m doing with a renewed sense of hope it made me think about it in different ways. And when we were talking about the fragments, everything Hannah you’ve just outlined there are the struggles with which we have come to the commission, and try to piece these things together. Because of course, you know, the fragments that Hannah saw, saw articulate weeks expressed there, and then does so through her spoken word and poetry in the 13 fragments. Those fragments exist when we’re trying to create better and improve society. And often that fragmentation, the siloed thinking that something exists over here, but it doesn’t exist over here is why our policymaking is not fit for purpose. So having a kind of such a creative and artistic overview of what the commission has been struggling with and, and researching and understanding, and talking to people about was really refreshing, but done in such a vivid way that I think I just articulated some of the policy frustrations in a new and better way. And it really made me think about how can I do more of that in the rest of my work? And how do we do more of that in policymaking in conversation building and research? How do we build in more creativity, more artistic approaches, to enable us to think about this and talk about this in a different way? I really enjoyed it.

Zinnie Harris 

Is it worth saying I think just before because we’re talking more just to give us a just an overview of what the commission is and what it’s doing just for those that don’t understand or haven’t come across it.

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

So the post-COVID-19 Futures Commission was put together by the Royal Society of Edinburgh last year, when we were in the midst of the pandemic thinking about well, what do we want to watch? We want to learn from this, how do we want to come out and it was about building a feeder society as a consequence of that and a whole host of experts from different areas, from public participation, from the arts, from public services and health economy, business scientists from all different areas. We are asked to come together and then working groups of wider networks were put together and we talk about public debate and participation and building inclusive public services and access to science and building national resilience. All of these different-different areas and working groups that we have created to be able to try and put together recommendations key learning’s ideas and thoughts, to encourage an improved Scotland, a theatre Scotland coming out of COVID-19. And having an opportunity to work with Hannah and having Hannah’s input on this in the fantastic film has been produced, puts, puts into context, artistic context, wider context, the conversations we’re having inside the commission, we’re asking ourselves questions such as who gets to have access to decision making? We’re asking ourselves questions such as, do our public services work for those who need them the most? How do we create trust in science, and expertise in a time when conspiracy and fake news is growing and is more of a concern? Big Questions require a lot of reflection, and often contradictions coming at us through the commission. So it’s a lot of big thinking. And the hope is to produce a report we’ve done a number of events, public events, and hopefully there will be more to come in the next parliamentary session, where we outline some of our thinking, in the hope of building that better Scotland everyone deserves.

Zinnie Harris 

And so it’s sort of when you’re talking about what it is that art can bring is it is what you know, what are we kind of getting at here? Is it that space where we can feel something kind of emotionally, we feel it in a different way. I mean, Hannah, this is to you too, you know, in a way, what you’re what you’re trying to do with the commissioners is take the kind of lots of different people is kind of collective experience in order to take it forward. And Hannah there you’re working with very personal material close to you, I suspect, or that’s, that’s your starting point is always the individual, I don’t know whether either of you have a kind of thought.

Hannah Lavery 

I mean, I think for me, I suppose as an artist, as a poet, especially it’s about, it’s about looking very closely. So it’s kind of getting back to the sort of taking what was quite as interesting for me it was a lot of these conversations were happening, we’re kind of taking little things and making, and making, you know, take taking these individual moments and interactions and trying to build that into thinking about how that can be put into policy or to put into decision making that would affect a wider society, and as opposed to affect us all. And then I think my job is almost to turn that back round, again, is to go, how are these big things, how do they then relayed back into a smaller and to bring that sort of individual? And to be that kind of individual response in that personal response?

And so it certainly, it was, I mean, it’s always difficult, isn’t it the eye on a piece of work, and especially important, because in a sense, it is me, but then it isn’t also, not me. But it definitely came out of many going home was going back into my own circle, and starting some of those conversations that were happening. And then I think the piece when I bought those words into the room with Beth and Belle, Dina, and that it was almost then about kind of, again, bringing in their personal reactions in there, which is what happened with the music and the film, the filmmaking and the, and the movement, it was all sort of we were having, we were constantly having a conversation about what this year meant to us. And what that meant was from where we stood and where we came from, and how we responded to this year. And I think that for me, I always feel that I suppose what, what art can do and what pork and poultry can do and, and Roger Robinson talks really eloquently about this is about it creates empathy. It kind of it draws people in and it’s about, and I think I think very much this is a beginning of a conversation this piece to me it felt like this is would hopefully support conversation because I my hope was it would, it would it would offer an opportunity for people to build their empathy for each other. And I feel like that when we’re talking about creating fairer and better societies, then the feels to me that the root of that or the what supports that is as developing our empathy for each other.

Zinnie Harris 

Yes, absolutely. And also sort of giving space I mean, I sort of feel the other kind of achievement of the pieces that it allows a kind of contemplation or kind of almost it’s it’s almost meditative positive you know, the way that you read it, and it allows you to sort of you’re drawn into to an experience that allows kind of thought rather than you know, quite often when we’re thinking about how are we going to make things better or how it there’s quite a lot of sort of facts coming at us and I mean, I don’t know, maybe tell it you can speak to that better, but it allowed me to kind of stop and take some space.

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

You know, in the policy landscape. We use the term lived experience a lot. And sometimes we use it accurately a lot of the time we don’t. And what this piece illustrates is to me, that’s the thing about it is a personal reflection, I guess, to me is exactly what I said, bringing it back to those who are living at Day in and day out bringing it back to those experiences because decision making and policymaking in Scotland, we do talk a lot about being progressive, we do talk, and there are very good things about it. But we’re not there yet. We’re nowhere near there yet. We’re pretty heavy on the rhetoric at times of it. So, policymaking decision making is still quite really very exclusionary. It’s a small group of people, and sometimes that includes me, talking about things, and then those things happening to people. It’s not happening with people. And whilst watching this multiple times, today, again, thinking about the fact that none of that matters, if those stories, those experiences, the granular level of how does, how has COVID felt how has inequality felt, what impact has that had on your life, on your livelihood, on your family, on your relationships, on your health. If those two things are not linked together, policymaking and decisions will never be fit for purpose. So that’s why those two sides matter. The decision making can’t happen over here with the experience of life happening somewhere else. And I think that’s what this brings us back to the words bring us back to how people have felt what that experience has been Hannah talking about her own experiences and talking to others in her network, and then building this wonderful production, I think more of that needs to happen. And more of that in the policy realm needs to come together so that the data and the science doesn’t feel so far away. The numbers that we’ve talked about when we talk about numbers of people who have died from COVID 19, when we talk about the number of people who have come who have contracted COVID 19. They’re not numbers, they’re people, their families that are affected the our friends that are grieving, they are communities that are harmed. And in the case of COVID-19, Black Asian minority ethnic communities, women, disabled people, working class communities, are disproportionately affected. They aren’t just numbers, there’s, these are people’s lives. And I think we need to bring that back into focus more. Because as COVID-19 has progressed, I think we have started to normalise some of the harm of it. And we’ve become used to some of the bad news of it. But we have to go back to remembering its people, its communities, it’s us and our next-door neighbours and our mothers and our fathers and our families. And I think this piece of work does that very well. And I think we need to do more of that across decision making.

Zinnie Harris 

Something so eloquent about you know, we talked to our children about, I’m not gonna I’m gonna miss quote, probably, but then talk to our children about death as we share our laptops, and you know, that that kind of sense of, of, you know, having to do the day to day and the homeschooling and all that kind of stuff, and having to grapple with these kind of few huge, difficult things that were happening. But I think that the piece is broader than just COVID-19 In a way, because it’s talking about this year, you know, she starts sorry, Hannah, you start with, you know, that year this year, and, and the kind of emotional experience that we’ve been through as women, you know, has been so affected by the fact that actually, we were all safe. Oddly, we didn’t have we didn’t have to go out at night, we didn’t, you know, there was something about being in our houses, and then having this kind of horrific, you know, I mean, I know it, it happens all the time. And Sarah Varad sort of hit a level of publicity that isn’t afforded a lot of murders. And we have to be mindful of that. But there was this kind of moment of kind of collective, what the hell is this? How can we be safe? And then, you know, many times we are now we’re having to sort of re-navigate coming out into the world, and how are we going to take that space? And, and was That was how did that sort of emerge? Hana? Or was that just so much part of your kind of emotional landscape of the year that it was bound to be there in a reflection?

Hannah Lavery 

Well, I mean, I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, I there was I had this, I was doing a series of workshops, and a young woman said to me, we were talking about zoom, and we were talking about how you know that that normal conversation about awful is missing people in real life and Bubba, and she just sort of piped up and she said, Actually, I found it really liberating because I’m in control of what people see. And I’m in control. And I’m frightened about when everything opens up that will no longer be in control of how people perceive me, or about being out in the world. And I think that was very much running through my head. And then when I started to look about that in, you know, when I started to read the work about how women are very alike, we’ve been kind of, we’ve been thrown back in our homes, and there’s a lot of talk about how we’ve kind of gone, that we’ve been taking the lion’s share of the kind of domestic responsibilities and all of this. And so there seem to be this, this interesting thing about what hormones are creating our homes. And then of course, we had, you know, the thing is, so ever, but we also had a lot of stuff around the kind of like really sort of conversations about the world that we want in the world that we want to inhabit. And I think for me, that that felt really something that I wanted to talk about, and I felt that there was a there is you will be talking about resilience, and we talk about it, it seems to be so much about resilience, to me often seems it’s like a flight or fight response, and it feels like you’ve spent and I think a lot of people kind of reassess their lives and when, actually I don’t want to live my life. And that level of stress, I don’t want to just survive, I want to have more. And I want to be in control more. And, when we started to talk about this in the room, this is when the film came about this idea about nats body as a landscape, but also that we were controlling the gaze. And then the point in the film, where we lose the control, when it when we start talking about when we have the jump cuts, which we felt, you know, that was the bad way a body is there, you know, like we’re female body is, is without our control on the way it’s seen in the way it’s perceived. And then, but actually having the control of where we point the camera and where we want to be seen. And I think that was trying to talk to that idea about actually the world we want. Or I this year is one that we have more control of the work the world that feels safe for us. And whether that is as, as you know, someone of colour or whether that is someone in terms of you know, of being a woman and being and being free of, of, you know, all the different burdens that we have to carry then that that that yeah, that was a real starting point for me. And when actually when I got the commission, it was literally just off the back of the time of when I was given it was just on the back of what was happening. So so that was very much in the news as well. So I think that all kind of informed it.

Zinnie Harris 

And I mean, so many things, we were kind of up against ourselves as women, I mean, a lot of us were taken into a much more kind of heavy caring role of kind of either elderly relatives or have young children or, you know, I mean, even teenagers required so much more than sort of previously. So it’s sort of set against this backdrop and tell that you’ll probably be able to speak to this much more but a kind of sense that actually a lot of the ground that we’d gained in terms of kind of our own time and being able to put our own work first, somehow sort of slid, slid away. And there was a kind of, you know, I think personally, we or a lot of us kind of felt that we’ve gone back to a kind of real grind of that. There was nothing but the domestic. And I don’t know if there’s, you know.

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

COVID-19, for me has illustrated how the equality or the progress that we thought we’d gained is actually really quite superficial. And that it didn’t, it didn’t take much for those for the ground to shift again. So how quickly, women to con disproportionate levels of even higher disproportionate levels of care, women were more likely to lose income and the number of hours that they’re working. It was a black Asian minority ethnic communities more likely to get covered and die as a consequence of COVID equally higher proportion of them likely to lose income, but more likely to be frontline staff, putting their own lives at risk and stealing saving the lives of others. We know this and COVID-19 has exacerbated those. Those inequalities but there are certain things like the language that we use, suddenly people became vulnerable. We’re using the term vulnerable a lot more thought who had moved on from that. How quickly when we’re talking about current, the shape of policymaking right now it’s about getting back out and opening up. And really, particularly UK government decisions about learning to live with COVID but not really thinking through what kind of impact does that have for those who are most at risk, unpaid killers, and frontline staff it across the board? The majority of those are women and within that disproportionate numbers of women of colour. So I think it has illustrated to more people than just those of us who work with inequalities how slow the Progress has been in how fast we’ve retreated back into a very unequal space and some of the wins that we had achieved, even those we’re going to need to fight for again. So there’s just, there’s a lot of there’s a lot within the experience of COVID-19, which is highlighted which those of us who experienced inequality regularly is highlighted that further, and I hope has highlighted it to those who experience less of that inequality. We’ve certainly had a lot of that talk now we need to convert that into change and learning. I think there’s a there’s a line and again, I’m going to do the same things. I mean, which is I’m going to remember the line and then not do it justice. And I’m very sorry about that. But there’s a line where you said, as if we all had a choice, as if we all had our See, I think it is, and that’s exactly it with choices, and the level of stake and the level of space you occupy within the conversations that are taking place and decisions are being made, is already decided by the your protected characteristics, your class, you know, your experience, your education level, the personal networks you have. So we didn’t all have multiple, multiple choices. We didn’t all have a C. And that is what defined our experience over the last 15-16 months.

Hannah Lavery 

Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely wanted to speak to them. And that line is also about, you know, there seem to also be a lot of last year where there was a lot of people that wanted to know, supposedly about our lives, and you know, that our lives who mattered. And it was, let’s see, there was a kind of call to share experience. But then, but there was such a vulnerability in that of not knowing where that led to what that meant. And so there was I felt there was a it was a year of a lot of promises. And then it was, you’ve had your say, and then realising actually, you don’t you know, that we haven’t finished speaking. And that actually these work that we haven’t we’re not that power, have not been able to create your own worlds. And, and so yeah, I did, I definitely feel that. And I think, because we were so divisive, you know, our society feels so divided. And I think a lot of us are experiencing each other through social media last year, perhaps. You know, it felt like a lot of people were speaking free for people. And it you know, a new were in our conversations were beginning and ending before you even had a chance to or before the people who needed to speak and spoken. If that makes any sense. I think I wanted to sort of, I definitely want to reflect that in the piece. And I definitely feel that really strongly that a lot of conversations were started last year are a lot of promises of discussion or conversations were made. But I but I worry that as we come out of it, that there will be they will they will not they will they will stop where they will, they will they’ll the energy to have them will stop. And I think that’s a real concern. concern of mine, I think because I think you’re right, I think we’re at this really kind of we’re at this point where we could pop, you know, that we could have a proper reckoning, that we could really say, these are things that we’ve learned as communities as individuals, as families, this is a moment for us to say, what what do we want, and, and what’s acceptable. And, and we just need to keep the energy and the fire going. Because you worry that as things open up, that will be kind of sucked back into those busy, overwhelming exhausting lives, and that all of this beginnings stuff will not kind of go to the next step.

Zinnie Harris 

And what’s your sense on that tonight? Because that I think we hope is a sort of thing that we all had our own experience of last year. I mean, you know, at every point there was, you know, right at the beginning, there was kind of people saying online, oh, but this is great. This is how the, you know, climate change is going to be held in its tracks and the aeroplanes aren’t in and then, you know, as we kind of got into it, that didn’t really kind of turn out to be the case. And then you know, there is now this sort of highlight on how unequal society was it was highlighted before but it but has come to the sort of national debate in a slightly more high profile way. And do you what is your sort of sense of how that will be taken forward? Or do you think as she sort of, as it says in the piece, you know, the time capsule, will it be buried or will that rose bloom?

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

So I want to be an optimist, but it’s not my natural disposition. I’m not gonna lie. I and I also acknowledged the fact that the piece ends, hopefully, the piece ends and hope and I, and that’s where, you know, we’re talking about the rules and we’re talking about climbing that tree. And it’s, it’s the ending of it is beautiful. And I do think others hopefully are the concern I guess I have with this and it just it links exactly to what Hannah was saying there. At the beginning of this, there was a lot of conversation, we kept hearing build back better or build forward better. What my concern is, is that we’re talking a lot about so now over the last few weeks, we’ve been talking about opening up changes, essentially no restrictions in England. Very few restrictions within Scotland. So although we’re keeping face masks, which I agree with, what I am, what we’ve witnessed is actually a return back to normal, but normal wasn’t working for the majority of people. So there was a conversation that was optimistic, I would say in the first six months, we’re really talking about, you know, this is a point where we should be thinking about how we build a better society, there’s a lot of conversation about 14 working weeks, conversations about flexible working, becoming the norm. How do people who have always been isolated because you were thinking about the fact that we, some people were having to stay at home or stay very local, but for a lot of disabled people and unpaid carers, that was every day, that was normal life, we were experiencing a little piece of what their everyday life was actually, you know, 15 months on and how we are opening up makes me think we’re actually forgetting those lessons of the first six months? And part of that is frustration, exhaustion, and a lack of empathy. And I think we need to get get back into that first six months thinking, which was, we’ve got to get through this together. And if we’re going to get through it together, that means we’ve all got to be given what’s needed to get through it together. Some of us need more than others, because some of us are further back in the queue because of historic institutionalised inequality. So how are we going to do that building back where everyone gets to start from the same place? Or is at the very least given what’s needed to end up in the same place that conversation is still frustratingly far behind?

Zinnie Harris 

And I think also the sort of very human thing of when an error is over? And of course, we’re not, we’re not really quite at the end of it yet. But that sort of feeling of well, you know, that’s it done now, we’ll just move on. But actually something about, as you said, those early conversations, we need to sort of remember the things that we were learning and, you know, it might be all too tempting just to kind of put it all in a cupboard and go well, that that was the time that was sort of thing. Hannah any thoughts from you about that?

Hannah Lavery 

Yeah, I ‘m totally in agreement and I share a lot of that. And I think that, I think for me, it’s also just that whole thing about, there was a point where we realised that we had agency. And it feels that there’s some, there’s so much now that though, is kind of taking that away from us, again, that we actually realised that as communities, we could look after our neighbours, if we wanted to that we could, there was something in that that was I found really kind of revolutionary, in a sense that actually, you just give us what we need. And we will make, you know, we will knock on our neighbour’s doors, and we will, we will make sure people okay. And, you know, when you had small villages and small towns and big towns, and everything has gotten people going out for like Black Lives Matter. And they were just, they were just saying, right, that’s it, we’re just gonna go and stand on our village green, and we’re just going to do this. And it just, there was such I mean, obviously, there was a lot of, you know, we could talk about the kind of naivety of that or whatever bit or the performative news of that, but they just felt like, oh, actually, as communities, we can change things. We don’t need permission, we don’t need to wait. We can just do it ourselves. And, and, and, you know, I’m not even sure really where I’m going with that. But it feels like that was that was really hopeful that felt like that, that we could, that we could kind of make these really do and they were capable. Actually, I think that’s what it was we’re really capable of changing quickly and responding. And we didn’t and now it feels, I suppose in it does feel in a sense that some of that’s been kind of you know, there’s so many barriers have been put up about that we’re actually there was a moment where we just weren’t actually I can just help my neighbour or I can see an officer now if I can, I can as an individual or I can as a community I can and I did feel really hopeful.

Zinnie Harris 

Reaching out. Wasn’t it? A sort of reaching out to people that you wouldn’t necessarily kind of have known and yeah, absolutely.

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

I think there’s also an exhaustion. I, people, you know, I think there’s an exhaustion in the number of barriers that exist. And I think people want to see at least some change, people want to be able to see that their voice has made some kind of difference, because that is what gives you the hope, the enthusiasm, the passion to do more. And so when you and yes, as you call it naivety or, but they wanted to see some good happen, because that’s what, that’s what spurs you to keep going. And I think there certainly feels like an exhaustion. And also, and I feel this as somebody who has campaigned on equalities, issues for a long time. There’s so many things to fight. Right, there’s so many different aspects to find COVID-19 has highlighted all of that, but they existed all along. That I think for, for many people who want to engage in that, knowing where to start. And you know, how to your piece really highlights the contradictions, there’s a bit that I was really struck by this is we clung to our borders, we come to our borders, hoping for escape, but just not for them. Again, I’ve not done that justice, I’m very sorry. But that those contradictions, the the way in which it’s this group of people get something but this group of people who’ve decided has does not, and these are arbitrary, nonsense categories we’ve created, which is really just to ensure that those who have power keep it and those who don’t have power don’t get any. And that frustration, that exhaustion for people who have been fighting equalities and innovating inequalities, fighting for justice COVID-19 is even more exhausting, because there’s, even more, to be done. So I think there’s, there’s hope within that, because more people I think, are weak and, and, and are aware of this. But I think there’s so many barriers in being able to do something about it, that we need to really try and tackle.

Zinnie Harris 

And I don’t know if the if you have any sort of solution to that, but I mean, it, you know, Hannah’s able to make this wonderfully sort of provocative piece to really kind of keep that, that dialogue going or to re provoke, and you obviously involved in policy, but for sort of the person that isn’t plugged into either of those things, it is difficult to know how to, you know, particularly as you say, when a lot of us just want to move on with our lives and get on with the next thing or back in that busy world. How do we keep that conversation going? How do we sort of tackle those things?

Hannah Lavery 

I mean, it definitely feels to me that like we’ve lived through a global pandemic, and we’ve got a global issue and climate change. And so, so many, always just and I think I think that’s why I had that line, call it Scotland. It was like, it’s not the none of the solutions, though, I feel that actually bringing power closer to people is always a good thing. But actually, all of these conversations feel to me like they’re global conversations. And I think that we need to kind of see this pandemic as being, you know, it’s, it’s beyond our borders, and it’s beyond, we can, and we can be caught even just for our own self-interest, we need to look beyond our own sort of, yeah, we need to look beyond and see how that we that the solutions are global solutions. And these conversations are global conversations. And, and I think that, you know, it’s, it’s good to talk about positive future for Scotland. But I think that that positive future for Scotland really can only be fully realised, and it’s a positive future for all of us wherever you live. And I think that that felt really, really, really wanted to make that kind of point in the piece. But that also feels to me that that was one of the opportunities that we had with this pandemic was to start to realise that the solutions to many of our problems are solutions that we have to find together as a, as a world and not keep kind of dreaming of our own kind of nation. Let me the whole idea of, you know, me, it just seems bizarre to me that we’re living in a point where we’re still obsessed by nationhood because it’s, it feels obscene, really?

Zinnie Harris 

Do you sort of you reach sort of globally but also kind of consciously in the piece you reach back in time, on a number of kinds of occasions, we hear sort of Cassandra, you were kind of given the image of the Trojan Women and I wondered how that sort of fitted into your experience of, you know, a woman living through this year that’s my thought to you, Hannah, and also tell whether there, there is a role for that in policy of kind of thinking, you know, not just out at the contemporary, but also the sort of how have we dealt with moments like this in the past? Really? How do we connect to our own past?

Hannah Lavery 

I think I mean, I think that and I actually think that Pat Barker talks about this really peacefully about actually in times of kind of peril, or in times of trauma, we often go back to the Greek mythology because it gives us such a kind of, kind of blueprint of humanity. And I think that there’s probably some of that, but particularly the idea of Cassandra, who has this sort of grasp of what the future is, but is ignored. And there was something for me I think about the kind of silenced or ignored women who are often the canaries in the mine, and we’re often no, we can often feel the tremors of what’s happening, and not having that those voices at the table. And I think there was some of that. And then I think there was also this year, I think, especially, you know, has been a reckoning and I think is, you know, somebody who has a family history that’s very much kind of tied and brutalised by kind of colonialism. It’s, it’s, it was very, you know, your grandmother did appear this year for me, like, I did feel very accompanied by my ancestors this year. And there was a lot of voices from that. And there was a lot of looking at my own history and looking at my place and, and looking at what, you know, this country is sort of history in the moment. And what that bond was, I think there was a lot of those conversations happening. And it felt that you couldn’t talk about this year and the future without seeing actually this has been really important that we actually talk about why we are where our wealth comes from, where all of us because we have the ability to be a progressive society. But the reason why we have the ability is that much that we have this wealth and you know, behind every What do they say behind every great wealth is a great crime. And I think that this has been a year of reckoning. So it felt to be an absolute sense that my grandmother are appearing. And I think when you talk about, you know, and also I think as a mother, when you talk about your children, you’re so it feels to me, it’s such a huge, you feel that line, don’t you feel that kind of what you’re what you carry, and, and what you’ve put forward. And so I think all of that was going on. But yeah, I definitely feel that. You know, yeah, it does feel like it’s we’re returning back to those old stories, because we need those. Those lessons and those blueprints, I think.

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

Yeah, I think in some ways, in some ways, it’s the blueprint is about learning. What has happened before what, what we can do what, what worked well. So also, learning from history and some things knowing not to let some things happen again, because in some ways, we are doing that we’re becoming very insecure when we’re thinking about the people who are only nietos, as opposed to, and our response to COVID response to climate change our response to racism or sexism, it’s not happening within our borders, these are big issues that are happening everywhere. And we don’t get to close ourselves off. Because, it doesn’t actually stop any danger. It doesn’t stop anything from happening. And it certainly doesn’t lend itself to progress, because that’s not the direction progress is going and the progress is of more people coming together. It’s about global solutions to global problems. So I absolutely hear that. And I think one of the ways that is has articulated itself is during COVID-19 is who we are choosing to learn from and which nations we compare ourselves too. So if you look at, you know, we’ve spent a lot of time talking about New Zealand, and New Zealand has done very well. But we could also have learned from Southeast Asian countries, we could have also learned from East African countries who have actually dealt with this exceptionally well, and are dealing with a better bureaucracy than what we are certainly and the UK wide at the moment. So who we choose to learn from who we see as equals to us, as we partner with them, learn from them, and develop through COVID-19. How vaccines are shared, how the solutions are shared, who with who gets a stake in recovery, are all lessons that need to be learned from the inequality that has happened before and historically. And if you look at where we choose to learn, where vaccines are distributed, who owns copyrights, you will see the footprints of colonialism and all of that. And so it’s it’s vital that we learn where we’ve come from how we’ve got to where we are today, both to learn the good but also make sure we don’t repeat the mistakes. And I don’t and I think there has been a lot of call for that very much to the back Black Lives Matters we was meant. But we did a lot of you know, shared statements and support last summer when there was a resurgence of protests. But that didn’t start and end and summer. It requires us to put in the effort. throughout every day in all the solutions and decisions that we’re making solutions were thinking about the research that we’re doing. And the Royal Society of Edinburgh did an international roundtable to learn from it. And we had their people, experts from Taiwan, from Brazil, from Argentina, from Ghana, from South Africa. And what was interesting was, despite working in this area, despite reading lots of things about COVID-19, at the moment as part of the Commission, in other places, we were not healing from that diverse global audience, global expertise, and really glad that the Royal Society of Edinburgh have done that. And that report will be published soon. But that shouldn’t, that shouldn’t be a one-off, that should be a normal part of the conversations that we have to create global solutions to global problems.

Zinnie Harris 

I think we’ve probably starting to run out of time. Now just the other thing that is just so beautifully sort of touched on in the pieces. And I think it’s part two is that idea of friendship, which in a way is sort of chiming with what you’re saying, you know, reaching across understanding empathetically what other people are experiencing, but also our friends very kind of close on the ground and how important they’ve been to us. I don’t know, Hannah, if you want to say anything about your experience of friendship with other women and that kind of community of women, which you’re so talking about in this piece.

Hannah Lavery 

I mean, I think I think it’s been my female friends have gotten me through this, it’s been those little walks, or we’ve actually those little moments, there’s, you know, the bits that are really from my real life are the ones where it’s like sitting on a bench with like my best friends and drinking a gin and tonic over our kids water bottles and just being able to talk and but I think what really struck me actually is so much and especially I think so much of female friendship is portrayed in a way that doesn’t ever feel real to me, I think women, when we come together, we talk about the big issues, we have those state of the nation conversations. We also have conversations, which are really based on listening, and really hearing each other. I think I’m not all women who wants to make a generalisation. But there was something I felt about last year about those, though, and I was seeing it a lot where you’d be we’re having these wonderful moments in nature together that were escaping together into, and there was also a live beside the sea and, and I was just struck about how more and more women over the course of the year were taken to the sea. I always just start off and see one of two. And then by no means like, almost everyone, including myself, now everybody is hitting the sea to swim. And we’re all and there seems to be a thing about wanting to be strong. And I think I was and I think for me, you know, and I talked a lot about nap tonight about this, when we were making the film, there was something about that, looking at our bodies differently, looking at our health differently, looking at who we were and that gaze and being free, perhaps with the gaze for a while to be able to actually what we want is strength. And we want power. And actually we took to the see, we swam together and we laugh together. And we sat on benches. And we shared so much that I think the normal life didn’t allowance that even though that we were drowning in domestic stuff that when we got to be together and those little moments of walks or being that there was something really special in that and I do think that there’s a power and the way women communicate with each other. And I think it’d be I think there’s a lot of people that can learn from the way when we’re female friends communicate with each other because it’s, it’s often very rooted in empathy, and it’s very rooted in, in hearing each other and being vulnerable with each other. And I think that, you know, I think that we would, we would progress. And we would we’d have a much more fairer society if we were allowed vulnerability and those conversations and allowed people to, to, to be wrong because actually a lot of this year is about being a lot of people have been confronted with, with realities that of people’s lives that they didn’t, didn’t ever know. And there’s been a lot of, a lot of people going I didn’t know that and I didn’t understand that and now I want to and and and so there’s I think there’s Yeah, so I think that’s why they’re there those women in the piece.

Zinnie Harris 

What about you Talat, and friendship to that?

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

Oh, my multiple times in my life is my friends my sisterhood that has saved me. And COVID-19 is no exception. I’ve had just I’ve not I’ve not been brave enough to dip myself in the sea. I’ve got to be honest. Right. And I have been I’ve been recommended it multiple times. And over the last year more and more women have been recommending it to me, so I might have to do it but I just don’t know if I’m there yet. But yeah, Do the same thing, having those walks, having that empathy having that place to, to genuinely be all the different bits of yourself. Yeah, one of the things that I’ve really felt during COVID is, I would, I would have once upon a time kept my legs quite separate. Here I am at work. Now I’m going home, and I’ve got to do those things. Well, I can’t do that you’re in my home right now. Appearance are in the background. And, and so, you know, I think in some ways it has given me and I’ve had these conversations with lots of the women in my life it has given us um, well, it’s meant that we’ve had to be all the bits of ourselves at the same time, because everything is happening in the same space. But it’s also in some ways, and lots of the women in my life have talked about this, it has allowed us to maybe unpick some of the superficiality that was around us that we were having to perform to other expectations, other people’s expectations, patriarchal expectations, whatever that might be. Some of them we’ve been able to drop because of exactly as what Hannah said, at the beginning of this year, there’s a little bit of control of what’s being seen, I don’t have to perform in the same way. I’m not going out in the same way. And so in, in some strange ways, we’ve had conversations about feelings of relief, at have been able to opt-out of conventions that were harming us. Those are conversations that I’ve certainly had, within the wider sisterhood that I’m very privileged to be part of

Zinnie Harris 

Yeah, me too. I mean, my experience lockdown was was that my sister who’s who’s also a single mom moved in with her small child right at the start. So we, you know, we were two women and four kids, and absolutely did it as this sort of kinship group. And really, we’re kind of talking quite a lot about how different it felt to, you know, we had, we, we have male children, but we had no sort of men around. And in some ways, you’re right about the sort of losing the sort of any sense of performative or, you know, having to adopt ways that maybe aren’t kind of as instinctive. I am going to wrap this up, because I think we’re coming up against time and just firstly, to thank you both for your wonderful kind of input. Hannah, what an amazing piece of work, I think you’ve really you’ve really done something absolutely extraordinary. And I’m sure the audience will have enjoyed watching it. Personally, I had to I wanted to watch it again, I don’t know if that’s possible with, with, with how they’re accessing it. But I felt that that kind of going through, I actually watched it three times, because I just felt that there was so much in your imagery that I really wanted to sort of ingesting really, but I just thought we finished by just taking maybe one moment each that we that really resonated with us that we’ll kind of hang on to of the kind of plethora of rich imagery that Hannah gave us. Talat, I don’t know if you want to start with that.

Talat Yaqoob FRSE 

Oh, gosh, there’s how there’s a lot in it. I think one of the things that I really did pick up on was, I think you talked about, there was something about Grenville tower. And there was a George Floyd, Black Lives Matter here ever heard. And I think what really captured my attention was whilst everything has been happening, inequality has continued to flourish in other ways. And the reality check of bringing all of that together in this, in this piece was really powerful. And I think it created a sense of duty, a sense of urgency and also highlighted some of the contradictions of what we are talking about on our front pages, and what isn’t talked about, and what is on the front forefront of our minds, and what isn’t, and I think that was exceptionally well done. And a very important reminder.

Zinnie Harris 

Wonderful, thank you. And Hannah, I mean obviously you made it all the images are yours but is there one that particular kind of you hang on to.

Hannah Lavery 

I think one of the powerful bits for me was I’d written a piece about statues and about you know, if, if we build a statue for our sisters and, and building and building a nap responded to that so beautifully with the when we kind of the camera came up with bizarre kind of sculpt the camera up and then when it gets to, to Matt’s face, you just turned away and this was a beautiful image of sort of strength and power, and defiance. And I think whenever I think of that film, I just seen that space just kind of holding all of that history and wisdom and yeah, and I definitely feel that there should be statues to our sisters and buildings built for our sisters for our sisters to speak and I think that was probably that felt, felt that that’s what we were doing together and as a group of women making this film is that we’re creating our own, our own space for women to speaking. And hopefully what’s been lovely about this today is it felt like that, that kind of provocation or that kind of space we created is worked on some way so and

Zinnie Harris 

I’m also so glad that you’ve brought in you know, the beautiful performance and filmmaking because we’ve, we’ve been sort of talking about the kind of themes and hadn’t really sort of mentioned that but, but, but absolutely stunning imagery and music and the whole thing but okay, well mine I think as you know, it’s just I love the kind of metaphor that you give us of the rose at the beginning and what will happen to it and then at the end your beautiful line about what to call it, and I’ll call it hers, I think is just absolutely something that I’ll hold really, really tight as we all think about what comes from this, you know, will it be ours that is, will it be belong to her us as we go forward. So thank you both so much. absolutely terrific. I’ve really enjoyed this and I hope you have too.