Combatting Scotland’s regional climate change challenges

This discussion will look at the effects of climate change in Scotland with a view to providing possible solutions to tackle them in future.

Scotland is vulnerable to the effects of climate change, yet its impacts will look and feel different depending on where you are. From eroding coastlines to accelerated deterioration of infrastructure, Scotland will need a multi-faceted and regional approach to making its places resilient in the face of a changing climate. Join our panel of experts as they present different case studies of regional climate challenges. Including the issues of food equity, coastal erosion, and road and rail distributions, suggesting solutions to tackle them in the future to deal with the many and varied impacts of climate challenges that we face in Scotland.

Please note transcripts are automatically generated, so may feature errors.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Good evening, everyone. And welcome to this event, this Royal Society of Edinburgh event. The Royal Society of Edinburgh is Scotland’s National Academy. Founded in 1783. The RSE is comprised of an elected fellowship of around 1600 members from a wide range of different disciplines. Its mission is to advance learning and useful knowledge, supporting the cultural, economic, and social well being of Scotland and its people. This event today is to discuss Scotland’s vulnerability to the effects of climate change. Yet the many impacts we will look at and feel how different they are, depending on where you actually live, from eroding coastlines to accelerated deterioration of infrastructure. Scotland will need a multifaceted and regional approach to making its places and people resilient in the face of this changing climate. Our panel of experts tonight will present different case studies of regional climate challenges, including the issues of food equality, nature, communities, and road and rail distributions. And we will suggest solutions to tackle them in the future to deal with the many and varied impacts of climate challenges we face in Scotland. My name is Lorna Dawson, and I’m from the James Hutton Institute and SEFARI gateway, and Robert Gordon University. Without further ado, I would like to introduce you to our first speaker, Professor Des Thompson. Des works for the Scottish Government’s primary nature agency, Nature Scot. He’s the principal adviser on biodiversity and science. Much of Des’ time is currently taken up working with the Scottish Government and partners to develop a new biodiversity strategy for Scotland, which tackles the nature climate crisis, welcomed Des.

Professor Des Thompson FRSE
Thanks very much, Lorna. And good afternoon, everyone. Thanks ever so much for joining us. I’m sorry, this is a virtual meeting, rather than being with you in person. Because I’m the first to go off, I’m going to show a few more slides than my fellow panellists. So please bear with me, by way of background just to remind ourselves that the climate is warming. There’s some fantastic material on the Royal Meteorological Society website. And here a graphic showing changes in temperature since 1650. And you can see how we’ve got this very steep increase, especially since the early 1970s. And indeed for rainfall as well these heavy rainfall events, which we hear so much about in the news, again there since 1960, the sort of steady increase that we’re seeing and heavy rainfall. Next slide, please. And my goodness, with flooding in the news at the moment that some compelling statistics here from Professor Alan Werritty, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, indicating that more than a quarter of a million homes, businesses and services are at risk of flooding. 2000 kilometres of a roadmap network are at risk of flooding, additional 100,000 properties may well flood by 2080. The statistics on flood risk really are stark against this backdrop of climate warning. And so we really do face great regional climate challenges. Climate change is happening. We’re seeing warming, more rainfall, more associated extreme events through floods, droughts, sea level rise, etc. and floods and droughts occur within a couple of days of one another. And much of this is due to a generational embedded land and sea intensive uses. We are responsible for where we are at the moment. And our response to climate change has to be from international to local has to be holistic, transformational community lead has to be well resourced, and it has to be ingenious, and I hope we’ll hear about some of all of this afternoon. And we need to work with nature, nature based solutions involving engineering, technological advances, environmental work, societal and attitudinal developments. And we need to work across the marine, rural and urban environment. And so, in essence, we have a nature climate crisis. We really we face a triple challenge we need to transition to what’s called a net zero economy by 2045. We need to enhance the state of nature so that nature is more resilient to and working for us in dampening the effects of climate change. And of course, we have to adapt to climate change. And we need to do all of this all three things at the same time, in the same areas of land and sea. And nature based solutions, which we’ll hear a bit about must deliver at least a third of our net zero targets and I’ve shown in a very simple graphic here, in the bottom left hand corner, what happens to our peatland resource where peatland has degraded, that emits carbon dioxide but where you restore peatlands, then you’re drawing in and storing the carbon dioxide. If you think that 80% of our peatlands and Scotland are in a poor state, you realise how much carbon were they’re pouring out, and therefore the effort we need to put in to restoring Scotland’s peatlands. And at the moment, Scottish Government’s committed quarter of a billion pounds to peatland restoration in Scotland. And so there are a great range of nature based solutions, just showing an example here from Glasgow City Council in terms of how you improve the city environment through managing your your waterways and your woodlands and your grasslands. So much better, to soak up the carbon and to reduce the risks of flooding. And my final slide then is that across Scotland, we can have a whole range of nature based solutions that benefit both nature and the climate. And these are the sorts of scenarios we were looking at ahead in Scotland, and indeed further afield. Thank you very much.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you very much Des. As always, we can expect a really thoroughly interesting and informative set of slides from you. Thank you. So now I’d like to introduce our next speaker, Professor Michael Davies FRSE. Professor Emeritus in engineering at the University of Sussex, Michael is a geotechnical engineer with research interests including ground improvement techniques, soil reinforcement, soil stability, earthquake engineering, and mathematical modelling of soils and also at the interface between geotechnical engineering, and engineering geology and other disciplines such as climatology, and biology. Welcome, Michael.

Professor Michael C.R. Davies FRSE
I’m also interested in slopes and Scotland is a country which has very, very steep mountains and has historically been one where our infrastructure has been subjected to landslides. I’m showing you four examples here, two of which are actually landmarks in in research in looking at climate change effects on slope stability, if you look at the top left hand corner, we have the Glenogil slide or two flow slides that took place in August of 2004. What was spectacular about this was that it, flows slide took place either side of cars, so cars had to stop with flow slide took behind them, and 57 people had to be evacuated by helicopter, almost unheard of in Scotland indeed in the UK. The then Minister for Transport, Nicol Stephen, name from the past.

Professor Michael C.R. Davies FRSE
Then instigated a study to see well, why was there why had this taken place and at the time, there were lots of landslides quite a lot of landslides took place over Scotland, not least because in the preceding month, there was 300 times the 30 year average of rainfall. And what we find is a very, very strong correlation between rainfall and landslides. At the same time, over on the over on the A83 in Argyll and Bute. What has now been called I think Scotland’s most notorious road, the Rest and Be Thankful. There were landslides taking place there as well. In fact, they’ve been landslides there, in years 2007, 9 11, 12, 13, 15, 18 and 20. What I’m showing you here and in fact, that’s the fourth of August in 2020. There were more landslides in September and October of that year, which really is caused huge problems and if you’ve been following the news, you’ll see that there’s work is taking place to find it a diversion, a new a new route through through the through the Glen in order so that you can avoid or minimise the effects of landslides. So that’s on our road network. If we then turn to the rail network, we’re all probably aware of the of the of the tragic accidents in Carmont near Stonehaven in August to 2020. There a slide took place on the rail as you can see in the bottom left hand corner, it was actually gravel from a drain which had water come overfilled flooded down through the drain overwhelmed during brought gravel onto the line train went through and the sad consequences you can see in the next version prob about 60 metres down the line where it was there was a derailment. Whereas interestingly the Glen Ogle activity a landslide woke up the Scottish Government and transport Scotland become Stonehaven accident as woken up Network Rail and two studies have come out of that the the the weather weather task force and a review of earthworks management, which has been on a national level to address climate change and, and the frequency of management of landslides in on the rail network. Just as another example, on the right hand side, there is one fairly inertia on the log slide. And you can see there too, in fact, that particular day six of February 2021 last year to two landslides took place one, a fairly one at West Kilbride and took seven weeks to to clear the track it to get a sense of scale, those little orange dots in the bottom that are people. And the length of track that was was was covered by by the landslide was 50 metres. So it’s a huge amount of depth. Fortunately, nobody was on the track when that took place. But it shows that the these sort of slides take place very regularly. What’s also interesting is to fit into the time of data, what we’re finding is in summer, we’re getting intense rainfall, and rain that’s leading to landslides and also getting we’re getting more rainfall in the winter in the winter months, which are causing landslides in February, February, January, February. So this is showing the two examples of where we might get landslides. Just a very quick, slow stability 101 really just to show you what why, why rainfall effects and causing more landslides. Top left hand diagram, it’s very simply the red line there is so as a resistance along at potential shear plane, which is holding the block of soil that’s above it in place, if the if the if the shift if the shear resistance if that if that plane weakens, then the factor of safety will reduce so in fact of safety when it fails, so we’re always hoping that the shear resistance is greater than the shear force in the bottom left hand corner, this is one example of of of how infiltration of soil can actually cause failure, because that shear resistance comes from what we call the effect of stress of the soil effect stress is the the this the stress is acting on the shear plate minus the pore water pressure or the pressure in the water. So if there’s if there’s if there’s if there’s if the soil is damp, but but not but not saturated, you’ll get suctions and as an infiltration those set of sections will enhance the strength of the soil. And if those sections are vanished due to due to infiltration wetting of the soil, the soil will weaken and that will cause the failure opposite in the bottom right hand corner is a reversal happen if the if you get rain infiltration and you get rising waters the pressure goes up again what we call the total stress minus the pore pressure gives us a reduced effective stress the soil will weaken. So the so so damp soil with sections weakens when it gets wet, dry dry soil with what a rising water table weakens when it gets wet and that will both lead to failure. top right hand corner just shows the sort of morphology of a debris flow but we have a failure that takes place at the top and the source area creates a SCARB that the soil flows down a flow track and there’s a road in the way or a railway way up the flow of the railway. And there’s a run out no but the bottom of fans sometimes it’s called so it shows you how the how the how the what happens over a failure it comes down this side of mountain and and and down onto the onto Bob base the valley that can be enhanced though the speed of it can be enhanced quite considerably if it goes into a channel and it can take and really it can can take quite large boulders with it. In fact in in Lenovo, they measured a massive it and 910 boulder have been carried down the road mountain on the road due to the flow slide just to show you all what what Okay, well where does this climate change come into this? Well climate change will result in as we know in Britain growth, greater rainfall, greater warmer summers that indeed warmer winters and this will and and what happens what we find is that the shear strength of soil on a slope will degrade due to weathering. And that’s due to freezing and thawing in the winter for example, or drying and wetting and gradually over a period of time with the as you’ll see in the top left hand corner that shear strength will decline. If that’s if that blue line is above the dotted red line, then everything is safe. But if for example, you get a major rainfall event and that it’s at a time a and that reduces the shear strength have shown the previous slide. So then it could end we could find is the shear strength becomes zero. And I both come to the same set as the shear stress required, and it still will fail, maybe it’s time be more infiltration or prolonged rainfall. And you see there that maybe not as great. And so although those reduction in this in the factor of safety, we don’t get failure, but that same amount of rainfall, as if further on what’s the weather is increased might well will might well cause failure of the slope. So what will happen with with climate change is that is that like that, that time base is foreshortened because the the weathering takes more cause takes place more rapidly. And therefore the shear strength reduces more rapidly. And also, there are more incidents of intense or prolonged rainfall, which can actually between A, B and C, which can actually bring down the the line that it’s been done the strength to so it fails, that’s the natural slope and engineers are very, very similar. But in engineered slow, we have sort of having been created an interesting period of reliability. And you’ll see the black line there is what you’d expect of a period of time between natural weathering natural processes. In railways, for example, rabbits digging into embankment is when the major causes of failures. And so basically deterioration over time line he shows what happens with globe with climate change how that can be accelerated. And so we shorten the age or an asset due to greater weathering taking place. And indeed, we might even get some events such as the vertical lines that come down in previous diagram, if it’s very intense behaviour, but it’s not but but line B shows what happens if we take, we take mitigating actions immediately, we can talk about later. But basically as in terms of engineering actions we can take to actually lengthen the age of the slope by being aware that there’s this deteriorating, and actually taking actions via to strengthening or regrading or putting more drainage in to prevent that deterioration taking place so quickly, and hopefully, we can discuss that later on. Thank you very much.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Very much, Michael, that was a fascinating talk. And you just explained the importance of that understanding of the soil beneath our feet, and how it interacts with the nature and the environment around us. And it’s vital for protecting human life to have that understanding. The next talk is by Professor Roger Crofts FRSE. Roger will be known to many of you. He’s a trained geographer and geomorphologist. He’s worked in many universities, the Scottish Office, and was the founder CEO of Scottish Natural Heritage, now known as Nature Scot in retirement, although I don’t think Roger has ever or will ever retire. He advises, lobbies, writes, and talks to anybody who will listen in Scotland. I’m sure many people are queuing up to listen in Iceland and Europe, on environmental strategy and policy, geoheritage conservation, protected areas, and good governance. Welcome, Roger.

Professor Roger Crofts FRSE
Thank you very much indeed. Well, we’ve heard a lot about storminess, which makes slopes unstable, and sediment flows down the slopes and soil and into the water courses. Of course, that’s not just a climate change issue. It’s actually a result also a human error in over grazing land and making it more unstable. And we’ve got two prime culprits in Scotland. They’re called Red Deer, and sheep. And up the coast of course, we’ve got rising sea levels and greater storminess causing coastal erosion. So my message is quite simple, that nature based solutions and Des has mentioned those in passing already are essential to both mitigate and adapt to climate change. And I’m just going to briefly talk about the case of rivers and coasts, do we really use the traditional techniques to fend off water from the land and so called future proof them with engineering structures? The two pictures down in the in the bottom of the slide there on the bottom left shows the scheme being currently developed Hawick. And on the bottom right, the scheme which exists a very important one, just by the mouth of the South Esk at Montrose to protect an important pharmaceutical production facility. So there’s always a debate here about what techniques we use. I like to have a simple argument that we need to learn from nature and there are many experts around Scotland who are real, really good at that. My training is way back itself. But I like to use the term mimicking nature. And I call that natural common sense. And that should start obviously at primary school all the way through the educational system and into lifelong learning even from so called unretired old boys like me, and I flagged up there, how we should approach this. Firstly, we should be thinking in what I call natural units, I think most people will understand what a river catchment is. And there is a small map there, I’m deliberately showing the the catchment of the North and South Esk system in the Lothians because I live right down by the river mouth in Musselburgh. And there is a scheme being put into place at the moment, which I will mention later on. And along the coast, we have managed over many years now to subdivided into what we call coastal cells. And these are the areas where sediment naturally moves from one side to another, and back depending on wind and wave conditions and tidal conditions. So let’s think in firstly, in terms of natural units, not some artificial construct, which is against thinking from a nature natural, common sense point of view. The second and this is blindingly obvious, isn’t it? But I can’t resist saying let’s identify clear objectives. You know, when you look at flood protection schemes on rivers, and we’ve got the Selkirk scheme, we’ve got the Hawick scheme, and now the one being developed for Musselburgh. Are we really asking the right question? Are we trying to slow the passage of water down the river channel? And if we are, the immediate question, therefore, is we’re trying to capture it in the ground throughout the river catchment area, rather than allowing it to flow as fast as possible into the stream. And at the coast, are we trying to build up natural resilience? Surely that’s the objective we should be thinking about. From an nature common sense point of view. Rather than just thinking about what we’ll build a seawall. We know jolly well, that if we were to build a seawall along the edge of the coast, the back of the beach, if you like, the beach will disappear and there’s plenty of evidence of that over many decades.

Professor Roger Crofts FRSE
I even remember reading engineering textbooks on coastal engineering, from the early post war period that demonstrated all of that. So what are the sort of natural actions that I’m thinking about here and I give some illustrations in the pictures there. For instance, within a river catchment, we should be blocking drains, many of the upland areas of catchments, have well drained land because of schemes under the agricultural and horticultural development scheme. And these drains are often still open. So if we close them, we would capture more water. And also, of course, we capture more carbon and it would be good for biodiversity. We should be opening up floodplains working with landowners and farmers who own that land, so that they can flood and storm water. At these peak periods of water flow, we should be thinking of planting more native trees in a much more subtle pattern than we are doing at the moment with the non native species of the various types of conifers, where we’re still using quite heavy handed machinery, which disturbs the soil, create sediment runs down down the slopes and into the rivers and gives off carbon in the process as well. And as might be obvious from what I said on my first slide, we should be used reducing grazing intensity, we have the ideal opportunity. Now we’re outside the Common Agricultural Policy of the EU to think of a much more creative policy that hits a lot of buttons, in addition just to food production, and we should be thinking of creating ponds and you can see a couple of illustrations on the right hand side there to that effect at the coast. There is some very good evidence that if we plant the classic grasses, the seed lime grass and the maroon grass, they will not only stabilise the surface they will actually capture sand and their root systems are amazing. And there is lots of also of giving nature a helping hand, by beach nourishment schemes pumping sand, which has got rather locked offshore, onshore. There’s a very good example of that of Portobello beach, the beach of Edinburgh. And it’s very good examples of doing reconstruction along the East Lothian coast at Gullane. So what do we expect to happen then? We can’t just play Canute. We can’t just sit and argue, we look for integrated government policies, programmes and actions. At the high level within Scotland. The rhetoric is really good, but it often doesn’t cascade down. And I have deliberately put a point and counterpoint on the slide there so that we think about moving from the traditional approaches to nature, people and economy wins, because it’s a three fold objectives that we should be aiming for. So from the single objective of a flood protection scheme, to one with multiple objectives, not having uncoordinated programmes. So you have a flood protection scheme, which is separate from an agriculture development scheme, which is separate in turn from a forestry scheme. But we have those that are coordinated and integrated. And we also need to get away from the one size fits all for Scotland. I mean, we all know and understand, I hope, the great diversity of our wonderful country. And so we should be developing these integrated multiple objective systems to fit local circumstances. And the trick there, of course, is to make sure we involve locals rather than than does buzzing in the experts who are not aware of all of the necessary history. And we need to get away from what sadly still exists on the ground of nature versus agriculture versus forestry. So we want to have linked support schemes, and there’s been a lot of debate, including through the Royal Society of Edinburgh, and the environmental NGOs, for example, of new land stewardship programmes. If we take that approach, I would say that this is best value value by far. And just briefly, before I conclude, we have a Musselburgh flood protection scheme, Musselburgh has been identified for many decades as a flood risk area, possibly at the very highest highest highest approach, as calculated by the current consultants, Jacobs, would flood two and a half thousdand properties. So it’s very important to try and reduce the flood risks. But talking to the engineers and the team, they say, Well, why should we be doing anything about biodiversity? Why should we be doing anything about land stabilisation? That’s not in our remit. We’re here to just do a flood protection scheme. And so they have been looking at engineering solutions. Whereas a group of us within the town, an Action Group inevitably are saying, well, why aren’t you working with a mimicking nature? Why aren’t you looking at nature based solutions? Within the catchment? Are you thinking about and talking to land owners about digging ponds about blocking drains about planting native species, about reducing grazing intensity? And all of those things that to people like myself are very obvious. And why are you ignoring the twin crises just to focus on the flood risk, in turn, instead of coming up with integral solutions? This is an interesting example of, if you like the experts, suddenly coming across people who are not entirely ignorant, should I say in our group, we have mathematical modellers. We have carbon university experts, we have land management experts, we have legal experts, and we just have ordinary citizens with a lot of common sense who ask difficult questions. And so we need to make sure that when we’re looking at these local schemes, which are predominantly a consequence of climate change, but not entirely that the local communities have a stakeholders have a proper role to play in and finally, we need to make sure, of course that in our schools so that my grandchildren are taught to have a great understanding of the implications of climate change for them, as well. Thank you.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you very much, Roger, that was brilliant. And you gave us some fantastic examples of mimicking nature, and how we can develop those natural solutions to the climate change issues. And I love this involving locals not buzzing in the experts, you show great examples of people coming together in that community to really bring the right solutions for the right place. Thank you. Next speaker. I’d like to introduce this Professor Fiona Burnett, Head of Knowledge Exchange and Impact, and also Professor in Applied Plant Pathology at SRUC, Scotland’s rural college. Her expertise is in sustainable crop production and applied plant health, plus many other areas I can tell you. She is also agriculture sector leader in the Directorate for Scotland’s plant health centre of expertise, one of the centres of expertise funded by the Scottish Government, research fund, the steering groups, boards and committees, she contributes to are extensive and involve advising to the agricultural reform, implementation and oversight board for the Scottish Government. She’s the director of Scottish quality crops limited, and a director of Dandelion, a community growing and harvest festival celebration in 2022. I hope you’re going to tell us a little bit about that tonight, Fiona. Welcome, Fiona.

Professor Fiona Burnett
Thank you, Lorna. And yes, I just wanted to finish the series of short talks by thinking about some of the climate challenges around crop production, but also how some of the solutions start to knock on to the choices that we make around food. And that impact on food equality and inclusion. So food is important. And it’s important to involve people in those decisions, maybe picking up on some of Roger’s comments about not parachuting in experts. So I mean, important to see that crop production is already a victim of climate change, as well as being an important contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. So, you know, we see here how we’re locked into long periods of flooding or prolonged dry periods. We know that’s making crop production more difficult. We’re seeing more pests and diseases, harder establishment, and that’s a particular issue for Scotland with short windows of opportunity for field operations. And often that knocks on to more limited crop choices and options. So thinking particularly the year of including nitrogen fixing crops that can be challenging in a Scottish scenario. And we only anticipate these risks and challenges increasing. So we see more exotic pests and weeds and diseases moving northwards, that adds to the input and management costs that farmers have. And that in turn knocks onto the cost of food as people experience. So some really significant challenges there. It’s just to highlight that, you know, again, crop production, and agriculture is a significant contributor in Scotland. So we know it’s about 18% of greenhouse gas emissions in Scotland, come from the agricultural sector. And we’re being set very ambitious targets to bring that down to net zero. The figures here are UK government targets, but Scotland has its own very challenging positions so that we’re aiming for a 75% reduction by 2030. And that is a challenge. There are some very immediate and fairly practical options that we know farmers can begin to implement. So here I’m picking a case study on spring barley, which is Scotland’s most widely grown crop, it’s about 50% of our arable acreage. And what we’re looking at here is the carbon footprint per tonne of barley. And we’re starting to the first side there of standard practice and then looking at some of the very obvious management options that begin to reduce the carbon footprint of that crop. So it starts with things like reducing tillage, so we drill directly into the preceding crop, we can capture more carbon, we reduce the number of passes and fuel used on the crop. So that brings us some way towards our net zero target. We then have questions around intensifying and I use that word deliberately intensifying production, so varieties that produce higher yields, but also ways that we can target our fertilisers much more efficiently And that’s maybe something we can pick up on. But that precision application based on a knowledge of fields, and a knowledge of what the crop will produce is a really key way of reducing some of our greenhouse gas emissions, including other crop options. So including legumes as a really key piece here. And that is challenging for Scotland. And we can move a little step forward along that net zero journey through that inclusion of cover crops and legumes. And then we might start to think about nitrification inhibitors as well. So that’s a means of reducing greenhouse gas emissions as well. These all carry costs and choices. But that’s some of the obvious steps forward. But you’ll notice that that gets us about halfway to where we need to be. So challenges remain. And my last few slides just highlight some of the new technologies we might bring in. So absolutely, we could protect crops from the elements, we can move crops in rural areas into poly crop tunnels. But again, we have challenges around very short growing seasons in Scotland and the cost of these units, we can grow more in communities, and much more locally, that’s great and engaging people in how food is produced. But only about 18% of the population is directly engaged in growing food. So that will always only be a small part of our solutions. And that then leads on to where vertical farming begins to sit. And Scotland’s beginning to explore its options here. They bring advantages in protecting crops from the elements, they can be local, so you can put them in urban communities. And they may be suited for production on very poor land. So either urban wasteland, or if you think of examples around, you know, the extreme northwest of Scotland, where the land is unsuitable for major crops. But but but they’re expensive to set up, their energy usage is very high. And I think if I can click on to my next slide, which brings me on to the Dandelion project, how do people feel about these new technologies. So I’m setting out a lot of choices around the solutions here. And the Dandelion project launches at Easter this year. And it’s a major festival that’s aiming to engage people in food production, it will celebrate a harvest festival in a new way. So people will grow what they produce and share it. But it includes an element of citizen science. So I’ve included an illustration here about a miniature growing cube, that will be going into schools, and for children will experience that growing in a high tech environment. So how do they feel about that? We know people are slightly separated from their food systems, I feel it’s very important that we teach people along the journey of some of these solutions. And they’re part of the voice in the choices that are made around our food production. And our systems of you know, solving some of these major problems.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you very much Fiona. And I think you highlight the importance of having a good healthy diet and also importance of engagement and good knowledge exchange involving everyone. We’ve heard about that tonight, that it’s local solutions brought up from the people with their own specific problems in their own regions. So thank you very much. That was a fantastic talk. So now, the floor is open for questions. And we have got a few questions coming in already. Thank you very much, audience. Thank you very much participation. I will if you could raise your hand, who would like to answer the question, as I am ask it. So the first question from Ken Thompson is in terms of carbon emissions. How does a small percentage of exposed peatlands compare with a large area of ploughed land every year? Des, yes.

Professor Des Thompson FRSE
Thanks very much, Ken. That’s a terrific question. So quite extraordinary. Actually, when you think about the extent of blanket bog we’ve got in Scotland covers about 23% of our land surface 80% of that in poor condition, so pouring out carbon. So actually, the extent of ploughed land and the amount of carbon emitted from that is far far smaller than what’s coming from our peatland resource. And when you think the depth of our blanket bog some of our blanket bogs are the deepest in the world. It’s a massive carbon source. Once you start losing the surface layer of the blanket bog once that sort of top, what’s called the acrotelm is lost. You just pour out carbon into the atmosphere, it just oxidises and contributes hugely to the amount of carbon dioxide in the environment. So you’re absolutely right in terms of ploughed land, there are carbon emissions, they’re nothing compared with what we’re losing from a blanket bog resource.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you. The next question is from Owen Roberts. And I think this one’s for Fiona, who asks, do poly tunnels not require large petrochemical usage and consequent pollution?

Professor Fiona Burnett
I would absolutely agree with that. And I think I have a couple of points here, the example I showed was a poly crop tunnel that’s made out of fishing waste. So if you can repurpose plastic from other sources, that’s one tick but I think I touched on vertical farming there, I feel kind of hybrid systems will be the way forward. So if you have to have a polytunnel, then having a longer season, if you can have efficient lighting, and heating, and you double the length of the growing season, again, the kind of print of that tunnel is reduced per unit of lettuce or wherever you produce. So I have two ways that going at that problem.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you for that. Do any other panels want to add anything to that? If not, we’ll move. Move on to the next question. And it’s from John Ennis. And he’s asked if the panel have any experience of growing flax, growing soil to soil with textile fibre crops in Scotland, he’s suggesting ‘offers a regenerative way forward in this traditional sector.’

Professor Fiona Burnett
Very limited experience. And flax is an example. I think Scotland desperately needs more alternative crops. I mean, really, the last major introduction of an alternative crop we had was OC drape, and that goes back 30 years. So I would be very supportive of this. One of the issues we have our own minor crops, though, and particularly flax is in a weed pressures and other management solutions. So you know, great to have alternative crops in there. But there are major challenges around that. And it leads on to where our markets would be, and things like that as well.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Fom Elgar, he’s asked do you think that renewable energies such as solar power, wind power might be effective solution for Scotland, for tackling climate change issues? Michael.

Professor Michael C.R. Davies FRSE
I suppose as an engineer, ought to say something really. Yeah, of course. Believe it or not, you know, solar power power. I’m actually doing some work at the moment with people in Alberta, in Northern Canada, or the Central Canada is pretty North compared to Scotland. And working on wind farms, sorry on solar panel farms, so there’s enough sun there to create energy. And the problem they have there is permafrost, actually, which is why I’m involved because freezing and thawing and it heaves the piles out of the ground. But that’s, that’s another story. But of course and and I live on the south coast of England, as I look out of my window, I see the Rampion Wind Farm, it’s one of the biggest wind farms, if not the current, currently the biggest wind farm in the country. And so, and wind power, clearly, Scotland’s got the biggest resource of wind power anywhere. I’d be you know, I’d be appalled if Scotland is not really going for as much wind power and solar power as possible. And just reminds me when I was in Dundee, some years ago, I worked in Dundee, we actually we were I think we were declared the the most sunny city in Scotland. Now there might be other people compare it to fight against that. And we were looking at within the engineering faculty at solar power. So I’m very, very optimistic about renewables to Scotland. And the sooner the better.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you very much, Michael, notes question for Roger, actually, I believe and you can follow on with a reply to this as well. From an anonymous attendee, what does the panel think about the flood protection schemes being developed or implemented in major Scottish cities? You think that the government is taking the increased risks of flooding and coastal erosion? Seriously, I think, Roger, please.

Professor Roger Crofts FRSE
Well, in theory, yes, because we have the the act of 2009, the Flood Risk Management Act and a lot of very good advisory material coming out from that, particularly through SEPA. But it’s who we’re employing to lead these schemes. That is, I think, the worry that I personally have, as I’ve probably indicated in my talk, we’re still thinking about entraining rivers, which is the old solution if you like, as opposed to, what can we do to make rivers run more naturally. The sad thing is that we’ve only got some small scale examples in Scotland at the moment, we’ve got the example of the Bronston burn, which runs right past the new Edinburgh Royal Infirmary and out to sea by the city boundary. And a stream that runs into the Tweed at Peebles called the Eddleston Water. And one of the things that I’m want to talk about is how we can scale up old Catchment Management Action Plans, and I’ve just formulated a proposition which we’ve discussed in the s river improvement group recently. But the barriers that I talked about from how government operates within Edinburgh don’t help matters at all. One of the things I wanted to come back to going back right to Ken Thompson’s first question, is it still surprises me when you drive around Scotland at this time of year? How much traditional ploughing we still have in the arable areas? Why on earth, when we now know much more, I mean, we were pretty clued up about iron pans and the need to make sure that we don’t continue to have those in leech soils, of course. But we were equally clued up about the possible loss of topsoil through wind, as well as the carbon takeoff as you turn the soil over. Whereas we know that direct drilling techniques which a lot of younger farmers are doing and saying this is brilliant, and even persuading that old fashioned father’s that this is the way forward. And I still feel that we need to have a revolution in thinking about how we prepare land for crops each year, because I don’t think we’re moving forward as fast as we should.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you. Roger, Des you want to come in on that point?

Professor Des Thompson FRSE
Just following up on that? And Ken’s excellent question. It is extraordinary that in some years snowploughs have been used to clear some soil of the road in summer, because of erosion, you know, something’s going seriously wrong there. So we have to care for our soil much more clearly. And people should be aware, we’ve got a major soils Congress being held and in Scotland this year, which is focusing very much on soil conservation. And indeed, Lorna, you may wish to say something about that. Returning to the nature based solutions, and what you’ve just said, there, Roger, surely, the important thing here is to adopt a sort of holistic catchment approach, it’s really got to be from mountain summit down to sea, as you’re moving down, every every part of the landscape, you’re trying to prove that landscape to be more resilient to have regenerating nature. But of course, to hold water, these awful floods, we’re seeing at the moment, these heavy floods often happen. Two or three days after heavy rainfall events high up in the mountains, just running off, it’s not being retained by nature and by the soils higher up. And so we need these nature based solutions. But we’ll only be able to get this if we get on the one hand government supporting this and there is a real appetite and government certainly the Scottish Government to make this happen, but local community initiatives.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Fiona, can I come back to you just to give a comment about the solutions such as reducing tillage to retain a carbon in our soils and also more efficient use of nutrients? And also there’s a question that follows on from that with about climate change affecting barley in Scotland, and barley choice of barley types. Thank you, Fiona.

Professor Fiona Burnett
Yeah, I’ll just pick up I mean, I think important to see that one size will never fit all in Scotland. So minimum tillage absolutely acknowledged as one step along the road, but it’s not suited for all soils. There are investment costs in getting the kit and machinery. And we start to see weed problems building up and the concept of rotational ploughing coming into thinking so I think it will be part of the solution, but it can’t be it will never be the solution for every farmer across all of Scotland. And then moving on to thinking specifically about barley. I do think that’s an important case study because it’s such a major crop for us. But for example, it’s very susceptible to variations in pH. So that very simple piece around testing soils, and liming appropriately can really increase the efficiency of production. We are moving forward in terms of high yielding varieties. And that brings me to a point about markets. So you know, clearly whisky is important in Scotland. And they’re very traditional in the varieties that they wish to accept. So that kind of bringing the market along with you is important. And my piece Lorna about plant health, that idea that we move away from high yielding, but vulnerable varieties that are very weak to some of the major diseases that we get in Scotland that enjoy our cool wet conditions. And that we have more resistant varieties. And again, that’s coming through, but historically, we’ve had breeding systems that value yield over all other traits. And that kind of inclusion of more resilient varieties is a really key one, precision agriculture is really important as well. And that is coming on in leaps and bones. But again, I think we need to think about the investment costs for growers getting into that type of technology.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you, Fiona, we’ve got a question from Douglas Christie. He says, As a farmer, he says he’s a believer in nature based solutions, as we’ve heard from Des today, but he feels nervous whether they will be taken fully on board by the government going forward. Expensive engineering solutions seem to grab more public and are sexier. What’s the panel’s thoughts? Michael, can I come to first and then Des maybe,

Professor Michael C.R. Davies FRSE
I think that I’m not a great believer in just sewing in concrete everything. In fact, when I was at Dundee, I was I was very proud to be a professorial Fellow at the Scottish Crop Research Institute, where I was working on use of tree roots to stabilise slopes. And as you’ve seen throughout the world, and very tragically recently, in Brazil, when deforestation takes place, we have slope instability and people get killed. And so really, I’m a great believer in going for natural solutions, if and at all possible. So you’re pushing open doors, because I’m concerning the key thing is to make sure that the right species, make sure you get you can get the cover for strength, you have to make sure you’ve got deep, you’re stopping deep, deep, deep failure, but also the surface as well. So you know, I got into this because I’m interesting called solid nailing where we actually put large rods into the ground and put a facing on the top. And you can just have a total analogy between that and deep roots, which also, deep roots take out water out and creates sections in the side. And going back to my second slide, actually, that increases the soul strength. So I’m a great believer in this if we if we, if we can get the right plants, and it’s a major job. But sometimes you’ve got to wait for the plants to establish themselves. So in an emergency, maybe not. But I think we should be looking all and every means to address the various issues that are taking place.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you, Michael. Of course, these roots turn over and interact with the soil microorganisms which release the nutrient and the whole cycle of life. Des, you wanted to add a point to this,

Professor Des Thompson FRSE
The Scottish Government’s developing the new Scottish biodiversity strategy and actually nature based solutions are writ large in that so my advice, you Douglas’s if you’ve got peatland, get in touch with us under our Peatland Action Programme. To restore our peatlands we also have a nature restoration Fund, which is looking at working at scale and putting nature based solutions in place. They really do work. We need to invest in them. And we will see government being much clearer about their commitment to nature based solutions.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you Des. Roger.

Professor Roger Crofts FRSE
Yes. Can I come in on Douglas’s point, I’m really glad to hear you talking about being in favour of nature based solutions. I know a lot of farmers who are saying the same, but the system is not helping at the moment. There was a wonderful report, I’m sure you’re familiar with it called farming for 1.5 degrees, I think it was published end of 2020, which was done by farmer’s organisations and other interests to map a plan forward, which recognises all the public services and all the public goods, and how farmers were the stewards of that and the guardians of it. But they shouldn’t be expected to do it on their own without support without proper, proper policies and structures. And yet the latest consultation from Scottish Government on agriculture was pathetic in the extreme and our response from the Royal Society of Edinburgh said that in very blunt terms, so we need people like you to speak out loud, but within the NFU within the Scottish London estates to actually get this change which a lot of people know will be beneficial to us all, and particularly to this vital natural capital asset, the soil.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you Roger, I’ve got about a minute from each of you to answer a question that’s been posed. Thank you very much for all these questions we could go on for another hour tonight with the interesting thing is. Could you in a one sentence tell us Do you think the solutions that you’re suggesting tonight are both doable, and reasonable? We’ll start with Fiona. And go around my desk here.

Professor Fiona Burnett
Maybe picking up Douglas’s point, I think some of them are immediately applicable. And they might be the small incremental improvements that he’s alluding to, not sexy, but doable. And then some of I think the vertical farming I think, is out there. And we’ll end up with some kind of hybrid solution. And we need to solve some of the other issues that have come up tonight around efficient energy use.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
Thank you Fiona. Michael.

Professor Michael C.R. Davies FRSE
Yeah, I would not only say doable, but essential if we want to have a transport infrastructure, which people can use, and not just to go on holiday, but so that they can go to the doctors and get to the hospital, then we have to make sure we do.

Professor Roger Crofts FRSE
That’s certainly doable because we’ve got lots of good examples around. But we need to change in mindset of everybody involved in this system. So that we’re looking forward more creatively, we can’t always get instant solutions. Some of them we got a plan. And in decades when we’re when we’re trying to get a better fix for nature.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
And Des.

Professor Des Thompson FRSE
This has to work. We’ve got to nature climate crisis, it’s an emergency. So what we’ve been discussing today has to work, there is no option. The other thing I’d add is just stop waste.

Professor Lorna Dawson FRSE
I have a whole session on waste as a topic, couldn’t we. And that’s an idea for another RSE event, I’m quite sure. But thank you very much everyone for attending tonight, thanks to the Royal Society of Edinburgh for hosting this event. And particularly to Hannah Bentley, and Kate from the RSE for facilitating and making it run so smoothly tonight, and to the Scottish Government to SEFARI for funding much of this underlying research and Nature Scot as well for carrying out that on the ground. And to our fantastic and really informed and inspiring speakers we’ve got tonight. Des, Roger, Michael and Fiona all bringing different ideas and different approaches, but they’re all important because they’re all integrative. And they’re all working with nature to find a solution to help tackle the climate and the biodiversity crisis. So through such events and through your audience, contributing very much thank you so much. We’re better placed to face these many external challenges. Thank you very much for listening and participating. Thank you and have a lovely evening. Thank you, everyone. Good night.